Carrying Extra Cylinders for a C&B Pistol

[pargent]

We do know that most of these accounts were BS, WRITTEN 3RD OR FOURTH HAND AND MOST LIKELY EDITED BY A MODERN PERSON ,now for the doubting Tóms out there I do know what Iam talking about ,yes I shoot modern Colt repros in completion and have done so for years , and Iam also privy to more ORIGINAL COLT NAVYS ,POCKET MODELS and DRAGONS THEN MOST OF YOU COULD EVER REALISE STILL EXISTED so when you doubters babble BS you are the ones loosing out , you are getting advice free from some leaders in their fields , it is up to you if you want to educate your self and learn new things (new to you ) . :idunno: :hmm:

 

[pargent]

John B Gordon is one of the very few to have placed an order for an extra cylinder with his new revolver, the rest were British officers leaving on oversees duty , they were going to be away for 2 , maybe more years .

 

[crockett]

This is for all. A lot of what is being stated is based on what would be logical. It seems to me that logical or not, what ought to be considered is documented evidence. Are there any records that Colt manufactured only cylinders to be sold as back ups? If they did, fine, then back up cylinders were used. On the other hand if Colt did not manufacture and sell back up cylinders then the only way to get one would be out of a scrap or damaged gun.
It pays to remember that combustible cartridges were made and used and pretty fast to reload. From my readings so far, I have found very little evidence that the practice of carrying a spare cylinder was used. Some of the Confederate cavalry troops loaded up with 6 revolvers, seems like a lot of weight if instead they could have just used the cylinders.
On the racket teeth, my thinking is if you didn't have a good match the parts might start to wear different, if you didn't do much shooting, then it likely wouldn't make a difference. On the burred ratchet tooth I had- a few file strokes fixed the problem, still, it seemed like some sort of manufacturing flaw however that was a modern clone- not an original.
In any event, I think the issue at hand is how common or uncommon was it back during the time to carry a spare cylinder? We have a couple of references so it is pc, the issue is how common was it? I'm trying to recall if I did or did not ever see any case set of Colt revolvers with a compartment in the case for a spare cylinder. I might have but I'm not certain.

 

[Arek]

I'm trying to recall if I did or did not ever see any case set of Colt revolvers with a compartment in the case for a spare cylinder. I might have but I'm not certain.

Early cased Colt Patersons were often sold with extra cylinder fitted to the revolver.

 

[Artificer]

This is for all. A lot of what is being stated is based on what would be logical. It seems to me that logical or not, what ought to be considered is documented evidence. Are there any records that Colt manufactured only cylinders to be sold as back ups? If they did, fine, then back up cylinders were used. On the other hand if Colt did not manufacture and sell back up cylinders then the only way to get one would be out of a scrap or damaged gun.
It pays to remember that combustible cartridges were made and used and pretty fast to reload. From my readings so far, I have found very little evidence that the practice of carrying a spare cylinder was used. Some of the Confederate cavalry troops loaded up with 6 revolvers, seems like a lot of weight if instead they could have just used the cylinders.
On the racket teeth, my thinking is if you didn't have a good match the parts might start to wear different, if you didn't do much shooting, then it likely wouldn't make a difference. On the burred ratchet tooth I had- a few file strokes fixed the problem, still, it seemed like some sort of manufacturing flaw however that was a modern clone- not an original.
In any event, I think the issue at hand is how common or uncommon was it back during the time to carry a spare cylinder? We have a couple of references so it is pc, the issue is how common was it? I'm trying to recall if I did or did not ever see any case set of Colt revolvers with a compartment in the case for a spare cylinder. I might have but I'm not certain.

You raise a very good point. If Colt did not sell separate cylinders at all to the civilian market before or during the time of the Pony Express on M1849 and especially M1851 Revolvers, then it is absolute fact the Pony Express Revolver/s mentioned with extra cylinders were factory fitted to the Revolver with which they were sold as a set of the Revolver and extra cylinder/s.

One may ask why that is?

We know Colt sold factory fitted extra cylinders for the Patterson Revolvers and the extra cylinder or cylinders came with the individual Revolver the extra cylinders were fitted to as a group or set of a Revolver and extra cylinder/cylinders. (In a very few cases, two extra factory fitted cylinders came with a Patterson revolver in a set.)

We know Colt sold factory fitted extra cylinders with some of their Model 1849’s and Model 1851’s guns and again, those extra cylinders came as a set or group with the Revolver they were fitted to. There are some original cased sets of M1851 Navy Colts with an extra Percussion Cylinder in Museums or the Collector Market. Some of these cased sets were the special Presentation Cased Sets Sam Colt presented to Princes, Potentates, Generals, Admirals and other Dignitaries as advertising in hopes of getting more sales.

There are also some ordinary Revolvers sold in cased sets with an extra fitted Percussion Cylinder and a lot of them were manufactured in London. 1601phill makes an excellent historic point that British Army and Navy Officers sometimes ordered their London Colt M1851’s with an extra factory fitted cylinder. Those Officers served all over the world and if something went wrong with the cylinder in the Revolver in many parts of the British Empire, the Revolver was useless for a LONG period of time until it could be repaired. So it was well worth the added expense of having an extra factory fitted cylinder as Insurance.

If Colt DID sell cylinders separately for the M1849 and M1851 Revolvers, this still does not automatically mean the cylinders could easily be swapped with no fitting. For historic accuracy, it would have to be documented whether or not they were sold as REPAIR parts to civilians or the military AND/OR whether those parts were sold to Gunsmiths or Gun Dealers/Distributors who had Gunsmiths fit the cylinders to customers’ guns.

However, one has to be careful when looking at Cased Sets of Revolvers to ensure the Cylinder in the gun and the extra cylinder are BOTH percussion cylinders! There are a lot of Cased Sets out there with cartridge conversion cylinders in the Revolver and the “Extra” cylinder is percussion. Though it turned out to be one of the first major financial setbacks for Colt, the “Thuer Conversion” Colts were sold with one cartridge and once percussion cylinder in case the customer could not get the special Thuer Cartridges. Here is a link in case folks are not aware of the Thuer Cartridge Conversion: http://jamesdjulia.com/item/lot-14...el-1851-navy-thuer-conversion-revolver-46406/

Some Civil War period Cavalry did carry extra revolvers and that made perfect sense. However, there are no documented examples of either Northern or Southron Cavalry using extra cylinders, let alone during a lull in a battle or when withdrawing to Regroup and Reload.
Gus

 

[thecapgunkid]

Thanks Zonie and Gus. This is a good post with some interesting responses. In my other life, The Capgun Kid of Cowboy Action Shooting, I will periodically shoot a Pietta Navy. In order to keep up with the posse it is almost necessary to carry extra cylinders, although most Dark Side Shooters will reload at their guncarts in between each stage of shooting.

Anyway, I had a gunsmith confirm that Pietta and Uberti have come a long way in quality and precision, and the four extra cylinders I pack fit my Pietta right out of box. I didn't need any tuning and they just popped right in.

To what extent those people did it back in the 19th century I don't know, but it certainly works for me today.

 

[Wes/Tex]

I would only add to Gus's comments that if you've ever tried to replace a cylinder of a percussion revolver on horseback, it'll immediately become obvious why Southern cavalry went the multi revolver route. Empty one, shove it back and grab another...there's enough manure going on not to be distracted by trying to hang on to three separate pieces, four if your wedge was loose in the barrel assembly...some rascal of a yankee could sneak up on you and poke you with that saber of his! :wink: The boys from Texas and Morgan's gang toted as many as 6, if they could get them. Texas regiments often carried double percussion shotguns for the charge and would spray the enemy just as they got into "blue whistler" range. And yes there are actual accounts of those good ole boys actually peppering each other as well as the yankees! Yee-hah! :rotf:

 

[crockett]

One more thought. On the Pony Express Revolvers of 1849 design. It might be a style called the Wells Fargo but I think there were some Colt Revolvers without a loading lever- to save weight. In such a case a spare cylinder would be needed for follow up shooting.

 

[hanshi]

Clint Eastwood carried extra loaded cylinders in "Pale Rider"; and remember, Clint is Da Man!

 

[azmntman]

...and he had a few cap n balls in his belt at the end of outlaw Jossie Wales too :grin: !

 

[Dphar]

Outlaws of the post Civil War era, before the advent of common cartridge revolvers, carried numerous revolvers I have read. Spare cylinders are good but just grabbing another revolver is better.
Loose cylinders with caps on them is not a good plan so some way to keep them safe would have been a problem.

Dan

 

[denster]

I agree with Dan. For combat use multiple revolvers would beat spare cylinders.
On the other point regarding the ready interchangeability of parts. Those interested in fact should read "On the application of machinery to the manufacture of rotating chambered breech firearms and their peculiarities" This was written by Sam Colt in 1855. Just a couple of quotes.
Colonel Chalmers on Colt's revolvers. "They extend from the parts of each class of weapon are precisely similar, so that if any become damaged on service, a great number of available arms can be immediately compounded of those which have been partially injured."

Sam Colt on making the cylinder. "In making the cylinder, or chamber, which was also forged from a block of steel, annealed, the centre hole was first drilled, then the exterior was turned and engraved (also by a machine), then the ratchet teeth were cut out of the solid metal, because it had been found that the ratchets, which were attached by screws, were apt to get loosened by service, and the arms were rendered inefficient and dangerous ; the holes for the nipples, and the charge chambers were then bored on a kind of universal chuck, the muzzles were chamfered, the stop grooves cut and the cylinder was completed fit for use."

Sam Colt on the application of machinery. "Machinery is now employed by the Author, to the extent of about eight- tenths of the whole cost of construction of these fire-arms ; he was induced gradually to use machinery to so great an extent, by finding that with hand- labour it was not possible to obtain that amount of uniformity, or accuracy in the several parts, which is so desirable, and also because he could not otherwise get the number of arms made, at anything like the same cost, as by machinery. Thus he obtains uniformity as well as cheapness in the pro duction of the various parts, and when a new piece is required, a duplicate can be supplied with greater accuracy and less expense, than could be done by the most skilful manual labour, or on active service a number of complete arms may be readily made up from portions of broken ones, picked up after an action."

This book is available as a free ebook on Google Play. Lots of other good info in it also. About 36 pages.

 

[Artificer]

Colonel Chalmers on Colt's revolvers. "They extend from the parts of each class of weapon are precisely similar, so that if any become damaged on service, a great number of available arms can be immediately compounded of those which have been partially injured."

Please note it does not say the Colonel ever saw such a thing on damaged arms. Yes, Sam Colt did not make such claims in the booklet, but I'm sure Sam was glad to have other people make them. Let's look to what else the good Colonel Chalmers had to say to see just how much we can take him at his words.

“While carried in the pocket, or belt,
there is no possibility of accidental discharge with these pistols.”

REALLY???!!! Gee, no reason for all those many thousands of people who carried these pistols hammer down on an unloaded chamber, eh?

“The Gallant Colonel has applied the same principal to the carbine, which, from the facility it offers for loading, is admirably adapted to the cavalry.”

REALLY???!!! Oh, that's right. Colonel Chalmers doesn't say he actually witnessed what a total disaster the Colt Carbines were.

Now what this booklet DOES NOT CONTAIN is Sam Colt actually claiming his cylinders could easily be swapped and work correctly. Further as stated before, Sam Colt never advertised that when it was in his huge financial interests to do so, IF TRUE.

The exaggerations in this booklet are illuminating, though not astounding even to the claims of PERFECTION in different places, when one is used to advertising claims of that period.

Gus

 

[denster]

Yes Sam did make those claims did you read the last quote above.
If you read the entire booklet you will find that Sam also said the only hand work necessary was finishing all else done by machine.
I take it that your position is that Colt knew nothing of how his revolvers were made? Nor did any of the others who made statements.

 

[pargent]

All cylinders were loaded and the hammer lowered onto pins between the nipples, the Colt revolving rifles and carbines had a pretty good rap all over the world except for in the USA :idunno:

 

[Artificer]

Actually I did read the entire booklet and that is how I found the quotes I wrote in my post above. There were other quotes that also read of glowing accounts by people who also were obviously making claims on things they had not witnessed.

I never suggested Colt did not know how his revolvers were made and have no doubt the majority of manufacture was by machine.

But again, Colt never claimed his cylinders would swap easily without fitting and never advertised it as so when it was in his best interest to do so.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

I am well aware of that procedure and still it did not provide the safety the author so gushingly claimed. That is why it became standard practice to carry an unloaded cylinder under the hammer well before the Colt Peacemaker came out.

As to the Colt Carbine, I admit I never researched how the rest of the world thought about it, after it was considered such a disaster when it was carried by American Cavalry during the Civil War and found so wanting in the cauldron of combat.

Gus

 

[denster]

Colt claimed that the parts of his revolvers were interchangeable. Stating at one point that all parts were made independent in the factory and arrived at the inspectors table to be gauged for accuracy and quality prior to randomly being selected for assembly and finish. That includes cylinders.
Recall Zonie mentioning the precise gauges that were available to assure the accuracy of the parts.
You will note in Colt's description of how a cylinder was made that it was machined to it's final form not hand fit.
Another interesting point that Colt mentions that due to machine use spare parts when needed could be accurately and cheaply supplied. That most likely included cylinders.

 

[Artificer]

Colt claimed that the parts of his revolvers were interchangeable. Stating at one point that all parts were made independent in the factory and arrived at the inspectors table to be gauged for accuracy and quality prior to randomly being selected for assembly and finish. That includes cylinders.
Recall Zonie mentioning the precise gauges that were available to assure the accuracy of the parts.
You will note in Colt's description of how a cylinder was made that it was machined to it's final form not hand fit.
Another interesting point that Colt mentions that due to machine use spare parts when needed could be accurately and cheaply supplied. That most likely included cylinders.

Please reference the pages and paragraphs that mention these things in context.

A cylinder being machined to final form does not mean it was not hand fit when assembled and especially during this time period.

Colt and S&W both were hand fitting parts to assemble their revolvers over 125 years after the 1855 date of this publication. You would know this had you ever been to one of their Armorers Courses. So did they somehow go BACKWARDS in technical ability well over a century AFTER this time period?

Gus

 

[denster]

I am not going to spend the time referencing pages and paragraphs only to have you come up with some other irrelevant argument. If in fact you read the booklet then you have already read what you are asking for.

As to the cylinders again. There are only a few critical dimensions and once they are machined into the cylinder there is nothing left to fit. Except maybe for those ratchet filing cowboys who don't understand what they are doing. Once it is machined it is done, if it is not machined correctly it wouldn't pass inspection and it was scrap.

Hand fitting parts to S&W and Colt DA revolvers. Talk about pettifogging an issue. Those designs were a hundred times more complex than Colt's percussion revolvers. S&W still does some at the performance center if you are willing to pay. Not necessary but nice.