Disappointed with 54 cal round ball.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

What are you comparing the .54 roundball to? Other roundballs of different calibers? Or conicals?

I have shot alot of deer in 19 years with a muzzleloader. Boiler room hits often have less blood than you'd expect. I think heart stoppage has a lot to do with it. However, if you hit 'em good, blood or no blood it isn't that tough to find them. It is work, but doable.

If you talk to people who hunt with bow and gun they will often say there is more blood with a bow kill.

 

[nkbj]

Shot a big doe yesterday evening with my renegade 54. Made a perfect heart shot but much like the 50 cal, the 54 roundball failed to pass through. Instead, came to rest against the hide of the opposite side.

Even with the snow, found VERY little blood and worry that a less than perfect shot could present a problem. Also have no doubt that a conical would have passed through both sides as proven last year with same gun.

Anyone else getting this kind of results or was this unusual for the 54?

Rick

You dare impune the sacrosanct orb?
:rotf:

OK, let's look at this realistically. What you described is not unusual. Light weight bullets just sometimes do that. That's all. They are what they are. Extremely deadly to be sure. But a little more lead for the diameter at a slower velocity would have punched through ("wasting it's energy on the landscape" as the saying goes). It's all a trade off one way or the other.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

That's very odd.

Other than the idea that the heart shot damaged the heart, so the deer had some adrenalin, but no blood pumping nothing to come out the wound.

The odd part is the load at under 100 yards did not pass through the deer. The ONLY time that has happened to me was a probably a damp round...it didn't sound right, not quite the right boom...otherwise, 100 yards or less with 70 grains of 3Fg and a patched .530 ball, ZING right through both lungs, out the other side, and no need to track the deer.

I've had a high hit in the lungs, and the chest cavity filled up so no blood trail, and the animal got in behind a clump of grass, and I walked around a bit, almost walking on top of it, before it dawned on me what I was looking at. But that was only once, as well.

I wonder if you might be placing the shot just a tad low, so nick the heart and miss the lungs? Still, that doesn't explain the lack of exit. I don't think you could be losing enough MV from an overly large touch hole that you wouldn't notice. I wonder about your powder....

LD

 

[coloradoclyde]

Interesting, what is the significance/importance of a complete pass through on a deer?

When a projectile does not exit a deer means the deer absorbed 100% of the energy. When the projectile exits a deer and goes flying off into where ever, what has been gained?

Bingo! :thumbsup:

 

[coloradoclyde]

You dare impune the sacrosanct orb?

Now that's funny. :thumbsup: :hatsoff: :rotf: :rotf:

 

[Loyalist Dave]

exactly the same amount of energy transferred folks!!!

Say it takes X energy to pass through the deer but stop just inside the hide on the opposite side of the deer from the entry point.

Then say I shoot my round ball, and it hits that entry point and reaches the spot where X energy would've been exhausted and the ball would've stopped, BUT my load has Y energy, a bit more than X, so continues through the skin...I still HAD TO deliver X energy to get it to the point where it then passed through the hide on the other side. You might say I "wasted" that extra velocity, but I still had to deliver the same energy as X to get it from the entry point to the hide on the opposite side, folks.

Besdies, at ML velocities it's the wound channel, not the "energy" that takes down the animal.

LD

 

[coloradoclyde]

exactly the same amount of energy transferred folks!!!

Say it takes X energy to pass through the deer but stop just inside the hide on the opposite side of the deer from the entry point.

Then say I shoot my round ball, and it hits that entry point and reaches the spot where X energy would've been exhausted and the ball would've stopped, BUT my load has Y energy, a bit more than X, so continues through the skin...I still HAD TO deliver X energy to get it to the point where it then passed through the hide on the other side. You might say I "wasted" that extra velocity, but I still had to deliver the same energy as X to get it from the entry point to the hide on the opposite side, folks.

Besdies, at ML velocities it's the wound channel, not the "energy" that takes down the animal.

LD

:hmm: :shocked2: :hmm:
I think I understand what your saying but you can't change the velocity without changing the energy.

I would call a bullet just under the hide near perfect, plus you get your ball back and only have to flesh around one hole.

Also the math only works if every deer is exactly the same, and we know that's not the case.
It is possible for a bullet to pass through a deer and have no affect on it. the same can be said for a ball stopping half way through.
people often forget that it is the damage caused by the bullet that kills the most deer. Not the size, weight or speed of the projectile.

 

[Danny Ross]

Okay did you hit any ribs? One possible explanation if you in fact did hit the heart that is the most dense tissue in the chest cavity and it is possible it swung inside the chest absorbing a lot of the roundballs energy before for the ball existed it. Also if the ventricles (lower part of the heart) were fully expanded and full of blood at impact, it would have been like shooting into a bottle water slowing the ball down. If that did happen, the deer's body would have moved laterally also absorbing energy from the roundball, also if you hit a rib that would slow it down even more. Not having seen the shot and assuming it was a level broadside shot.

Also there have been discussions here about the speed of the ball at impact. How a slower ball will give you a entrance and a exit wound. A faster ball will deform and flatten out more dumping more energy slowing its progression through the animals body and not giving a exit wound. My guess it expanded to something around 60cal. I would like to see a picture of the ball you recovered. My guess it has flattened out on the leading side going through the deer. Again because of possible speed, possible rib hit, the heart being the most dense tissue, and if the ventricles were fully expanded with blood at impact.

No blood trail, you took out the pump, even with a exit hole you would not have had much a blood trail. By taking out the heart, what normally would have been high pressure lines causing excessive bleeding to fill the chest cavity with blood and leave a good blood trail out the hole or holes you made, now have became SlOW drain lines, for the thick blood to drain backwards at the speed of gravity to get enough to leak out of that hole or holes. That is why a heart shot though cool to say you did, is not the best shot to take if you have to track.

I watched this year as a buddy of mine's boy shot a 190-200 pound doe at about 70yds (he ranged it after the shot). He used 90gr 2F BP (rough equivalent to your 80gr of 3F) , TC 54cal Renegade, hit center chest and spun the deer 180 degrees, hit rib on the way in and out, entrance and exit wound, deer ran 150 yds in a laser line before it dropped leaving a good blood trail. You could put your thumb in the hole in both lungs. DANNY

 

[Stumpkiller]

What load - what range?

60 yards isn't bad at all for a bloodtrail.

 

[galamb]

We can probably guess all day as to what happened and still all be wrong.

The deer was shot, it piled up some 60 yards later.

The caliber, the roundball and the guy who pulled the trigger all "functioned successfully".

Last year I hit a fair sized buck with my 40 cal (roundball @ 92 grains) at a distance of 27 yards - got a pass through. Deer traveled just shy of 100 yards and laid down.

This year I hit a young buck, right through the lungs @ 22 yards with my 30.06 - 165 grains/>2900 foot pounds on impact. DIDN'T get a pass through and the deer ran 35 yards before laying down - and the only blood on the ground was what ran out of his mouth after he had laid down.

So is the moral of "my story" that a 40 cal sidelock shooting a 92 grain roundball a "more effective" whitetail rifle than a modern 30 cal centerfire?

No, both deer are dead. Both were recovered. Whether or not the bullet passed through is of no consequence to the end result.

If you hit a deer in the heart with a 54 cal roundball and don't recover it because it runs to the next county, then you have a problem.

Sorry, just don't see what you think would have been accomplished or turned out better had the round passed through.

Blood trails are nice if you have to track "some distance" (which usually results from less than a perfect shot).

 

[Drahthaar]

Guess I'm not as disappointed with the lack of blood trail vs. the lack of an exit hole....

I understand the pump being removed from the pressurized line. Not sure if I hit a rib square? I'll have to check more closely in the morning. Our temps last night warranted an immediate quartering before she froze solid!

I'm intrigued by the idea of the larger flash hole and reason for loss of pressure....

Also just getting ideas from those who either typically get or don't get hole in/hole out...

No disappointed with the shot or recovery, just seeing if this was the norm or unusual.

 

[Drahthaar]

...... Wondering ABOUT the times of a less than perfect shot and finding blood b/c of producing 2 holes....

 

[Spikebuck]

I have used a .54 on 14 kills...I'd say about 1/2 of those were with a .530 ball and 1/2 with Hornady GP Conicals. Whether ball or conical, it sits in front of 90 grains of 2f powder. Complete pass through, including some with ribs on both sides shattered, with all of those killed with a roundball. Only one conical shot did not pass through and was perfectly mushroomed laying right under the hide on the opposite side. All shots were broadside and chest. Furthest shot was 115 yards and passed through.

So, in my experience, it is not common to not have a pass through with a .54.

IMO, since energy by itself is not what kills a muzzleloader hit deer; rather, penetration and tissue damage, much like an arrow does, I want complete penetration, the longest possible wound channel, and two holes whenever possible. :v

 

[Spikebuck]

:hmm: :shocked2: :hmm:
Also the math only works if every deer is exactly the same, and we know that's not the case.

The math works for each individual wound channel. A projectile taking the same path through the same "material" will take x amount of energy to travel a certain distance. Even on the same deer, different hits take different energy to push through X distance, but that doesn't detract from the math.

people often forget that it is the damage caused by the bullet that kills the most deer. Not the size, weight or speed of the projectile.

Just answered your own question. The further it goes, the more damage. But size would generally make a wound channel proportionate to size, all things equal, and weight and speed are what help keep pushing it through the farthest, so those factors are not unimportant.

 

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

I just tried searching these forums, and then a google search for stories of people hitting deer in the vitals but still not recovering the animal.

Nothing came up.

If you are looking for a bullet that will drop deer in it's tracks even when gutshot, a roundball or conical - such guns are carriage-mounted, not shoulder-mounted.

What I would consider a "less-than-perfect" shot would be a liver shot. It is still a vital organ, but the animal will last minutes not seconds. However, every liver-shot deer I've encountered did not go far, and there was plenty of blood, one hole or two.

The other thing about recovering a ball on the underside of the hide - don't be fooled into thinking the ball just petered out at the point. It still had plenty of speed at the point it hit the far hide. It is just that the hide is so elastic it "caught" the ball.

I've literally walked up on deer where I could see a large "bump" where the ball hit the hide. After skinning the animal I did NOT find the ball. There was a hole in the rib cage, but no exit hole in the hide. The only thing I can figure is the hide "threw" the ball back into the chest where it came out in the gutpile.

 

[Stumpkiller]

You still haven't answered: what load . . . what range?

How much powder behind that .54 ball and how far away?

I have never had a .54 fail to get full penetration - two holes - with the two .54 rifles I have hunted whitetail deer with. That's 10 yards to 80 yards with 85 FFFg or 90 grs FFg.

Broadside lung shots.

The only m/l deer I ever had fall in it's tracks was with a frontal from a .50. And the only ball I recovered. 32" of penetration from 10 yards.

 

[mooman76]

I believe he did answer with the details if you reread the threads.

 

[Danny Ross]

He did: 54yds, using a Hornady RB, .20 oc Yoke patch, 80gr Goex 3F.

 

[coloradoclyde]

:hmm: :shocked2: :hmm:
Also the math only works if every deer is exactly the same, and we know that's not the case.

The math works for each individual wound channel. A projectile taking the same path through the same "material" will take x amount of energy to travel a certain distance. Even on the same deer, different hits take different energy to push through X distance, but that doesn't detract from the math.

people often forget that it is the damage caused by the bullet that kills the most deer. Not the size, weight or speed of the projectile.

Just answered your own question. The further it goes, the more damage. But size would generally make a wound channel proportionate to size, all things equal, and weight and speed are what help keep pushing it through the farthest, so those factors are not unimportant.

Thank you for expanding and clarifying my comments, making them easier for people to understand. They were a bit vague. :thumbsup:

 

[tenngun]

I have never had a failure to pass through with 50,54,and 62. I load 60-80 2 or3 f. How ever reading this I wonder about the weather and your load, or some sort of dampness or oil in your bore. And sometimes just bad luck happens. Fliers. In the end the deer didn't suffer any more then if she had an exit wound and I doubt she will taste different. With or with out ablood trail a shot deer often aint to hard to follow for such a short distance. I was at an historic reenactment in oct. at the nat boone house and met a traditional hunter who only used conical.I will only use ball, go figure.