Early Rustic Arms German short rifle

[Story]

Does anyone have any experience with the following, either as a kit or built?
Thanks in advance.

THE GERMAN SHORT RIFLE
complete: 775.00 in the white: 675.00 kit: 475.00

1755-1775 Approximate time frame: Our German Short Rifle patterned with a correct step wrist represents an early American made Jaeger similar version can be viewed in Shumways Vol. If you enjoy hunting with a primitive weapon, but have experienced difficulty with a long rifle from a modern day deer stand, you might consider the compact and handy advantage that this particular model offers. It offers a plain maple wood stock stained real dark, L&R Transitional lock and an early Germanic wide butt plate and guard Single trigger and one upper thimble Featuring a neat little 21" full Octagon rifled barrel in .50 .54 .58 .62 calibers, overall length is approximately 36"

 

I'm looking at the photo again right now. I first saw this about a week ago or so on their website. I have no first hand experience or knowledge with this product however my first impression is of a fantasy gun with some incorrect style issues such as the trigger guard and ram rod pipe placement. The barrel seems to be at the very extremes of being short and doesn't appear to be swamped. The ramrod is too long but could be easily shortened. I am no expert on this by any means but it reminds me of their canoe/boat gun creation. I think their intentions are good in creating a fresh offering and perhaps it could be worked over real good in kit form to make a more appealing gun. My gut feeling and honest opinion: I don't like it.

 

[Story]

I'm with you on the trigger guard and swamped barrel. But as for barrel length, see the linked photo:

A Short Flintlock Rifle,
http://www.hermann-historica-ohg.de/aukt...b=kat46_S_D.txt

Johann Wagner in Kronach around 1730. Iron octagonal barrel, slender in the middle and swamped at the muzzle. 13 mm caliber bore has eight groove, star shaped rifling. Decorative engraving and the signature "Johann Wagner Cronach" over the breech. Dovetailed front and rear sights. Flat, curved lock with slanted edges, engraved with leaf work and curved lines (cock a replacement, tumbler notch damaged). Carved, light walnut stock with inlaid star on the cheek piece. The patch box lid is a later addition. Engraved brass furniture. Length 67.5 cm.
Johann Wagner began his apprenticeship in Vienna in 1687. Documented in Kronach up to 1726.

PS: 67.5 cm = apx. 27"

Another short rifle, albeit converted to Percussion:
http://armchairgunshow.com/images/MP-136C.jpg

German or Russian Jaeger style rifle - percussion conversion from flintlock - About .56 cal. w/ deep 7 groove 1 in 16" turn rifling in 17" swamped octagon barrel. - About good as repaired & modified. - Rather crisp metal is dusty light reddish brown color on barrel & more gray on lock. Light patina on engraved brass furniture. Barrel breech has oval brass inlay of rampant lion, and grotesque face engraving; with deep cut beaded ring at far rear. Lockplate scroll engraving; sideplate engraving has inhabited scroll w/ human headed lion & dog. Good bore; needs mech. adjustment. Beautifully figured maple stock was lengthened about 2" long ago, with patchbox cover added at that time. Stock had been painted black, and previous owner removed paint, and wood has been nicely sanded but not refinished. Stock broken at wrist and repaired, but breaking again. Front part of barrel channel shattered & fragilely repaired. Horn nosecap mostly intact. At one time had a tang rear sight, now gone. - Rampant lion mark is similar to one pictured in Stockel & attributed to "Krei", ca. 1730, possibly in Munich. Previous owner noted archaic cyrillic "P.A." marking, possibly initials of Russian owner. Knowledgeable previous owner believed this to be originally an early 17th Century child

 

:agree: Yes, there are shorter barreled jaegers but as I suggested, this product offering uses a barrel that is on the extreme short end of the spectrum as some jaegers had barrels close to 40" to illustrate the other extreme. The deminsions of jaeger type guns varies greatly. I bet someone could dredge up a photo of an original jaeger that is a spittin' image of Early Rustic Arms' short rifle and make me look like a jackass but it still just doesn't look quite right to me for some reason:hmm: Some germanic creations had rediculously short barrels and some had huge bores as well like the jaeger on pages 100 and 101 In Shumway's Jaeger book, .93 cal and 1.89" across the flats at the breech on a 30" barrel :shocking: When it comes to German hunting rifles you never know what you might find. That's why I like 'em so much.

 

[LFord]

Story,
I can't give you any word on the German Rifle that Larry makes but I have one of his fowlers on order and you can take a good look at it when it comes in if you want to.

As a little side side note my daughter is starting her freshman year at Central this September.

 

[Java Man]

I'd have to agree with Jaegermeister on that bbl length. To me, anything under 31" looks too short. But I like longrifles. Had a Jeager one time with a 1" straight oct, .54 cal bbl at 36" long. Just didn't work well for me, or more likely, I didn't give enough of a chance. Prolly a little shorter bbl than 36" would have been better.

Java Man

 

[flintlockmdj]

Barrel length seems to vary considiberally I have an original Jeager barrel, to all apearances never shortned, that is 28 3/8" long

 

[Stumpkiller]

Here is a beautiful, original, Jaeger with a 10-3/4" barrel! Swamped, even.

http://www.ambroseantiques.com/flongarms/1685hanskeiner.htm

Go figure? Haus defense? Back-up to a boar spear?

 

there were a LOT of those short barreled, chunky stocked, highly ornamented guns over in Germany and that region. Now, how many of them made it over here I don't know, but Germans have been making those things since the 16th century in many variations, most of them with barrels ranging from 16" to 20".

Why? Don't ask me, they always looked basically useless as a hunting arm, but then again, it would handle brush country with ease.

 

[Story]

Stumpkiller,
That's exactly the weapon that started my whole research project. I emailed the seller, asking if he knew the caliber, and never heard back from him soooo.... that's 12", I bought a 12" .78 caliber pistol barrel. ::
I'm figuring iron TOTW furniture blued, with a walnut stock.
Interesting that that particular example doesn't have a patch box, which would indicate that a "rapid" reload wasn't in the plans.
So yes, a Boar rifle for thick forest. Coup d'grace delivered with the hirschhanger (hunting sword).
Stumblin Bufflin,
Ever been down in the woods around Graffenwehr?
Les,
Going to Springfield this coming weekend?

 

[jim gray]

If you intend to use it for reenactments, a little more research may be in order, and I wouldn't place to much credence in the builders claims as to its aythenticity if I were you. However I think it would make a great little roundball shooter for hunting in thick laurel and or hemlock stands.

Maybe a little research would enable you to work the kit into something more historically feasible, if the gun's intended form isn't close enough.

Does anyone have any experience with the following, either as a kit or built?

1755-1775 Approximate time frame: Our German Short Rifle patterned with a correct step wrist represents an early American made Jaeger

I'm not really sure if you are asking about the guns performance or it's authenticity. In other words, are you inquirying about histrical accuracy or practical accuracy?


Stumpy,

Now that is an interesting little gun, is it actually rifled?

 

[Stumpkiller]

The auction write-up doesn't say.

RARE GERMAN FLINTLOCK HUNTING CARBINE by HANS KEINER, ERGER, ca. 1685: Molded hardwood full butt-stock with raised comb. Deeply chiseled steel mounts in a baroque scroll pattern with black lead background. Swamped octagonal rifled 10 3/4" barrel deeply chiseled throughout en suite, with three-stage rear sight and signed at the tang Hans Keiner, Erger. Steel side plate engraved in same manner with a depiction of a bare-breasted female figure playing kettle drums. Articulated trigger guard also engraved. Steel butt plate engraved with Coat of Arms consisting of a round-shield, bow, arrow and quiver. Lock plate deeply engraved throughout and retains all its black lead background. Hammer of very early form with a long spur atop for cocking. In overall excellent condition retaining nearly all its finish throughout. Original steel ramrod. Length overall 24,"

Hans Keiner of Erger, Prussia, ca. 1677, is best known for his heavily chiseled wheelock arms. Examples of his work are exhibited at the Victoria and Albert Museum and the Castle Osterstein, in Germany. Keiner is considered one of the best German gunsmiths of his time. See J. F. Hayward The Art of the Gunmaker vol. 2 1660-1830.

 

[Story]

Uh, guys...? :hmm:

RARE GERMAN FLINTLOCK HUNTING CARBINE by HANS KEINER, ERGER, ca. 1685: Molded hardwood full butt-stock with raised comb. Deeply chiseled steel mounts in a baroque scroll pattern with black lead background. Swamped octagonal rifled 10 3/4" barrel deeply chiseled throughout en suite, with three-stage rear sight and signed at the tang Hans Keiner, Erger.

 

[Richard Allen]

I realize I ain't the brightest bulb on the tree but did anyone else notice this thing has a 10 3/4" barrel?

Ain't 10 3/4" kinda short even for a carbine barrel? Why would anyone go to the trouble of swamping a barrel that short, it cain't possibly be barrel heavy. And last but not least, what possible use could a three-stage rear sight be on what sounds to be a shoulder fired pistol.

Now I'm curious. Recon what caliber this thing was? Mayhaps a seventeenth century version of the M79 grenade launcher?

Here's some one's opportunity to enlighten me.

Richard/Ga.

 

[Story]

Richard,
This may have been a child or woman's weapon, or may have been built short for fast handling in thick forests, from what I've read about Boar hunting.
As for swamping a short barrel, it might have been recycled from a time when it was longer.
The three stage sights might be compensation for bullet drop, in those instances where the shooter might have had shots at longer ranges.
These are just logical suppositions, obviously there's no way to prove what the gunsmith was thinking.

Meanwhile, anyone think this could be modified to a similar trigger guard?
TG-MA-81-B Triggerguard, Schuetzen Style, sand cast brass . . . $9.00

 

[Richard Allen]

I guess anything's possible. I sure looks like a b@$#@%& piece made from a bunch of thrown together parts to me, but what do I know?

Kinda reminds me of the 4-wheel drive craze back in the early 70s. There were a lot of trucks on the highways decked out with 14.36X15 tires, dual Rancho shock systems, skid plates, heavy duty bumpers with big old winches and brush guards, light bars with 6 or 8 KC spotlights, loud exhaust systems, and every shiney doo-dad they could bolt on 'em. Many of them seldom if ever saw a dirt road much less got into places where they might need all those goodies because it was too damn much trouble to get them clean and shiney again. Much ado about nothing!

Just a personal observation, not meant to rile anyone.

Richard/Ga.

 

[LSU TIGER]

If I remember my German history correctly, the idea was to corner the boar with dogs (remember this fella is about 300 lbs. !) and take a shot from close range (read that as point blank). The "gentleman" of the day carried a sword as well, so the boar would be dispatched with the blade, after being almost killed with the firearm. It was considered bad form to kill outright with the firearm. The closer you got, the tougher you were. With a pack of yapping dogs running around, a short barrel was better than a longer one.

 

[musketshooter]

My original flint Yeager has a 29 inch 62 cal. swamped barrel.

 

[Boonetract]

I can't tell if it even has an entry thimball. Buy it in the white with plain maple, and send him a good PC trigger guard to inlet. Get the wood patchbox option also, then just a bit of carving and dark stain and you would have a very nice short barreled Germanic styled rifle.:m2c:

 

[Story]

Does anyone know the historical background on the "Pranger Stutzen"? This looks like those 18th cent. short rifles.

Chris I.?

Scroll down to the bottom of the page -

http://www.jagen-waffen.de/Hege/Gewehre.html