First build. Would like PC/HC advice

[Pete G]

I look at these things as time machines. If you are not concerned about hc/pc you might as well carry a modern inline.

 

[tenngun]

None of us can be 100%, and at some point we all fall short. In the end there will be something wrong with the most perfect copy. So you have to swallow and accept this is the best one can do.
Still,we can try. And when we fail try again.
Yes you can do what you want to your gun,but the fun is trying to get the most pleasing gun to you you can.

 

[Sidney Smith]

The way I look at it is 99.99% of the shooting public, and just the public in general would have no idea that what they may be looking at is not 100% HC/PC. This is why I do not concern myself it. Only a purist will pick out any flaws. Again I build for my own satisfaction and if my gun doesn't measure up to someone else well, that's just too bad. As long I'm happy that's all that counts. Thats the only point I was trying to make earlier.

 

[tenngun]

Tourist won’t, and 99% of the folks at an event won’t .
I just got through with a build that has a bucket of flaws, that’s ok. I got a lot of fun building and I think it will give me fun on the range.
But..... I built a SMR, not my best but easy on the eyes. When I built it I thought a German style lock would be appropriate, I was wrong and after I learned i was wrong the lock mocks me. In fact when I **** the gun you can hear the sear click in to place. The sound of the click is ‘ger-man’, right by my ear every time I shoot.
It’s there ... ok.
It’s your gun and your the only one that will ever notice. But that’s the fun too.

 

[jbwilliams3]

The way I look at it is 99.99% of the shooting public, and just the public in general would have no idea that what they may be looking at is not 100% HC/PC. This is why I do not concern myself it. Only a purist will pick out any flaws. Again I build for my own satisfaction and if my gun doesn't measure up to someone else well, that's just too bad. As long I'm happy that's all that counts. Thats the only point I was trying to make earlier.

Then perhaps you shouldn’t comment on a thread in which someone has specifically asked about making their gun look like its antique counterparts. 99% of people won’t notice and won’t care, you say? Then why don’t we all just carry plastic stocked centerfire guns. And all living history should just resign themselves to wearing party city costumes since the public won’t be able to tell anyway… Excuse the irony.

Also, the original poster is putting together a Jim Kibler kit which uses cnc technology to shape the stock, leaving little work left for fitting and shaping. When I say little room, I mean you can practically snap them together and you have an in the white gun based on what folks are saying who’ve put them together. It is an excellent kit by all accounts and worrying about historicity does not need to be reduced to a tertiary concern, particularly given the amount of work already done by cnc shaping.

 

[jbwilliams3]

None of us can be 100%, and at some point we all fall short. In the end there will be something wrong with the most perfect copy. So you have to swallow and accept this is the best one can do.
Still,we can try. And when we fail try again.
Yes you can do what you want to your gun,but the fun is trying to get the most pleasing gun to you you can.

Not entirely sure what you mean by “none of us can be 100%.” If you mean no one can produce something without some flaw, then I agree. Period guns showed rasp marks and flaws. Without some little flaw here or there, modern recreations can seem sterile unless you’re emulating fine Euro guns. On the other hand, if you’re saying that modern makers can’t reproduce something that 100% resembles goods (guns or any other item, for that matter) made in the past, then you would be patently false. It takes more work. It takes close study of original pieces. But to say it can’t be done is not true. Look at Dave Person’s guns, for example. He’s not the only one, but he’s one of the absolute best at making the really hard ones (European guns) which easily rival originals in form and function.

Some folks will say, “if you don’t have a wrought iron barrel, you can’t be truly HC/PC.” I’ve examined wrought iron barrels from the Williamsburg gun shop and talked with folks from that shop over the years, and none of us can discern the difference with the naked eye in a finished wrought iron barrel vs. a steel barrel. Wrought iron’s softness is also way overstated.

All this to say, if the original poster does a little bit of work and research, he can turn that Kibler kit into something very closely resembling a gun made in the middle colonies during the 60’s-70’s of the 18th century.

 

[Trot]

The way I look at it is 99.99% of the shooting public, and just the public in general would have no idea that what they may be looking at is not 100% HC/PC. This is why I do not concern myself it. Only a purist will pick out any flaws. Again I build for my own satisfaction and if my gun doesn't measure up to someone else well, that's just too bad. As long I'm happy that's all that counts. Thats the only point I was trying to make earlier.

I don't give a hoot what 99.99% know or don't know. I want my gun as historically correct as I can have it, not to please anyone else, but to please myself. If that is not important to you then that is fine, but there are those of us who it does matter to.

 

[tenngun]

Not entirely sure what you mean by “none of us can be 100%.” If you mean no one can produce something without some flaw, then I agree. Period guns showed rasp marks and flaws. Without some little flaw here or there, modern recreations can seem sterile unless you’re emulating fine Euro guns. On the other hand, if you’re saying that modern makers can’t reproduce something that 100% resembles goods (guns or any other item, for that matter) made in the past, then you would be patently false. It takes more work. It takes close study of original pieces. But to say it can’t be done is not true. Look at Dave Person’s guns, for example. He’s not the only one, but he’s one of the absolute best at making the really hard ones (European guns) which easily rival originals in form and function.

Some folks will say, “if you don’t have a wrought iron barrel, you can’t be truly HC/PC.” I’ve examined wrought iron barrels from the Williamsburg gun shop and talked with folks from that shop over the years, and none of us can discern the difference with the naked eye in a finished wrought iron barrel vs. a steel barrel. Wrought iron’s softness is also way overstated.

All this to say, if the original poster does a little bit of work and research, he can turn that Kibler kit into something very closely resembling a gun made in the middle colonies during the 60’s-70’s of the 18th century.

What I met was at some point any reproduction breaks down at some point,
Most of us will be happy with a good kit, a few demand a copy as close as can be reproduced. A very few get a gun that visibly is unable to be told from original except for the age difference,
Ok,your close to 100% here. However we’re still not there and here it gets silly, the iron in a hand forged iron barrel was not mined the way it was then or smelted out of the ore they did then. The wood was not fallen and seasoned the same way as done then. At some time a repo no matter how good we do it breaks down. Ridiculous example but we live now not then, we can’t get to 100%.
Do you want an eighteenth century apple-pippin pie? Can’t have it, eighteenth century apples are extinct,handwoven home spun Linsey-woolsy? Can’t have it. Neither the linen or the sheep exist any more. You can’t make bully beef or salt pork, those pigs and or cattle dont exist anymore.
So that’s what I met by can’t get to 100%.
I can cut my clothing so it looks like what was had then, I can cook my meal following an old recipe, if I had the talent I could build a gun like they had then. But no matter what I do I can’t get 100%. That’s ok.
Yes there are lots of guys that do as close as humanly possible today.

 

[Brokennock]

Then perhaps you shouldn’t comment on a thread in which someone has specifically asked about making their gun look like its antique counterparts. 99% of people won’t notice and won’t care, you say? Then why don’t we all just carry plastic stocked centerfire guns. And all living history should just resign themselves to wearing party city costumes since the public won’t be able to tell anyway… Excuse the irony.

Also, the original poster is putting together a Jim Kibler kit which uses cnc technology to shape the stock, leaving little work left for fitting and shaping. When I say little room, I mean you can practically snap them together and you have an in the white gun based on what folks are saying who’ve put them together. It is an excellent kit by all accounts and worrying about historicity does not need to be reduced to a tertiary concern, particularly given the amount of work already done by cnc shaping.

I don't give a hoot what 99.99% know or don't know. I want my gun as historically correct as I can have it, not to please anyone else, but to please myself. If that is not important to you then that is fine, but there are those of us who it does matter to.

Here, here!

 

[Bootz]

You guys are hilarious!

I decided to go without the coins. Here are some pics of my progress. This is my first attempt at wood carving, so there are some "personality" marks

 

[Brokennock]

You guys are hilarious!

I decided to go without the coins. Here are some pics of my progress. This is my first attempt at wood carving, so there are some "personality" marks

Looks okay to me. Better than I could hope to do carving.

 

[Kansas Jake]

I agree with Brokennock.

 

[dave_person]

Hi Bootz,
You are doing OK but some of your scrolls and incised lines are rough. You need to do a better job leveling your backgrounds. Before starting, did you look at any photos of original carving?

dave

 

[Kansas Jake]

Dave you are so helpful. I didn’t see what you reference until you mentioned it. I could look at pictures of originals and not realize what I might be doing wrong without your excellent critique. Thanks from many of us I’m sure.

 

[Pete G]

Some riffler files will help with the cleanup. Scrapers can also be a big help.

 

[Bootz]

Riffler files! Thank you! Didn't even know those existed. I did the best I could with the lines and knew immediately they weren't all going to be as smooth as could be accomplished by someone more skilled and experienced. I will definitely try these files to clean up the sweeps.

The relief of the background was intentional. In looking at photos of originals, there appears to be a healthy cross section of chip, high & low relief techniques represented. I saw several with varying levels of background plane and decided I liked the more folksy appearance of those which weren't flawlessly flat.

Thank you everyone! It's coming along. If all goes well, the browning should be down this next week and the Aqua-Fortis should arrive from Kibler in a few days.

 

[Col. Batguano]

In addition to scrapers, sanding sticks can help too. They sell them at woodcraft or Rockler with little 1/4" wide bands of sandpaper you can move the paper as it is getting used up. They come in a color coded set of 4 I think, with grits from 80 to 320. Try to smooth out the "elbows" in your volutes some. Curves should be continuous, with the radius the same, gradually increasing, or decreasing as you move up or down it.

 

[Bootz]

In addition to scrapers, sanding sticks can help too. They sell them at woodcraft or Rockler with little 1/4" wide bands of sandpaper you can move the paper as it is getting used up. They come in a color coded set of 4 I think, with grits from 80 to 320. Try to smooth out the "elbows" in your volutes some. Curves should be continuous, with the radius the same, gradually increasing, or decreasing as you move up or down it.

That sounds like a good idea, I'll check those out during my next trip to Woodcraft. Thankfully, there's one pretty close. After I play with the riffler files, I'll post some new pics.

Meanwhile, I've been working on my first powder horn as well. It's not perfect either, but I'm pleased with it so far. I heated & rounded it, now I just need to make a plug.

 

[Col. Batguano]

The riffler files I use came from Brownell's, I looked for them at Woodcraft and didn't see them. They're bent triangular needle files that are marketed as being used to touch up checkering. They're kind of expensive, around $10-$15 each as I recall.

Here's what I use mostly for carving tools & scrapers. I'll post pictures of the sanding sticks & rifflers tomorrow. The scrapers came from Brownell's, and the Pfeil, Swissmade, and Dockside models push gouges came from Woodcraft.

 

[Pete G]

I think my riffler set came from MBS. They were not very expensive.