First Gun Build Questions

[kaintuck]

Perry, I, too, have no patience. When I feel the anger coming on, I put down my tools, walk away, and sometimes don't come back until the next day.
Just takes a little will power. :v

that's why the cat is in the shop with me....every now and then...I HAVE to stop and mess with him....it keeps a build slowwwww.........

 

[Johnny Too-Tall]

yes sir just go down to the local hardware store get some flat steel or brass stocks and design a patern thats bigger and try again. If ya mess up to much quit trying to inlet it and leave it exposed thats what my buddy did we went to the hardware store 3 times he has the biggest peice of brass on the non-lock side but you cant see the messed up wood below it

 

Thanks y'all for the tips. It's funny how the most obvious answer (make a bigger side plate) is the one you never thought of.

Someone had said to just start over with a new stock. I agree, that would be the easiest thing to do, but I have used this stock as my "test" stock over the years. I don't need it to look pretty, as I have tried my hand at various different things with it over the years.

Birddog6, Well, we did stop in Union City and see the Dixie Gun Works shop, so it wasn't a complete waste of trip. I had bought from them over the years, but I doubt it would have been as cool as Tip's place. Then again, I'm lucky enough to have The Log Cabin shop about 2 hours away, so that's a good consolation prize.

JD, what do you mean by shave down the side panned and glue matching wood to it? What exactly am I shaving down? The brass or the wood? Are you talking about making a wood patch on the stock and then inletting that? Wouldn't that chip up really bad when I try an inlet it again? Can you find thin pieces of maple to even do that with?

Also, I'll try and get a picture of this messed up side plate and post it as my wall of shame.

 

[jdkerstetter]

JD, what do you mean by shave down the side panned and glue matching wood to it? What exactly am I shaving down? The brass or the wood? Are you talking about making a wood patch on the stock and then inletting that? Wouldn't that chip up really bad when I try an inlet it again? Can you find thin pieces of maple to even do that with?

You would not want to "inlet" a piece of wood as a patch as it would show horribly. You are replacing the whole panel.

Remove the the metal side plate you inlet. Use a plane, rasp/files, or whatever your preference to shave down the entire side panel down dead flat and then glue on another piece of wood and reshape. Redrill your lock nail holes and re-inlet your side plate again.

Small and large pieces of maple and available through several sources like Woodcraft. you can cut it as thin as you need.

Of course, replacing a stock would be ideal but if we did that every time a mistake was made we would never learn to fix anything and would go through a lot of wood. Wood = $$$. The old 'smiths were pretty creative in some repairs....even on some highly decorated pieces.

Enjoy, J.D.

 

Ahhhh.... okay, that sounds do-able.

One question I have when researching components is what does A weight, B weight, C weight, etc for barrels mean? Does it have to do with quality or is it something else?

 

[jdkerstetter]

Barrel weights refer to the external dimensions of the barrel. Hit this link and scroll down and this should explain it: http://www.ricebarrels.com/chart.html

Enjoy, J.D.

 

[Robby]

perrybucsdad, This photo shows what jd is talking about I believe. This was my first long gun and is rife with mistakes. One of which, When the gun was finished, I noticed the tail of the lock was too high. It bugged me, probably only me, till I finally stripped it down, planed the lock panel off, glued on a scab, and re-inlet the lock. I tried to incorporate a moulding on the glue line to make it less noticeable.

How good a fix? not for me to say, but to me it looks better than it did.
Just wanted to give you a visual of what can be done, good luck!!
Robby

 

[jdkerstetter]

I'd of thought on the second try you would have gotten the lock on the correct side. :grin:

Beautiful work, as usual, Robby. And a perfect example of what I am talking about.

Thanks, J.D.

 

Wow, very nice. I would never had known unless you told me. On closer look though, the curl of the wood does give it away just slightly.

If that was your first gun you ever built, I'm never posting pictures of my first gun as mine looks like a 2 year old built it.

 

My copy of Recreating the American Longrifle came today... yea! Wow, very nice book... very overwhelming too. A couple of questions to better understand what it is I need to do.

1) Is there a good video disc I could order to help visualize what I need to do to accompany the book? Seeing would help tremendously vs just the written text in the book which is very through but hard to follow in some parts.

2) Is there a good book detailing the various styles of the Mountain rifles? I want to study the history of them before I start so I can make the one I want. I don't want it to be a Franken-rifle with multiple styles, but pick one that appeals to me. In order to do that, I want to understand the various styles better. Also, I need to figure out of I want a true poor boy (does that even have a buttplate) or one that might be a little more upscale but with all iron hardware.

3) What is the difference between the Siler lock and the Manton lock? I hear the later is the correct one in the Tenn Mountain rifle, but many of the component kits come with the Siler and why is that? Also, what about a L&R Durs Egg lock? Is that period correct?

Thanks,

John

 

[jdkerstetter]

3) What is the difference between the Siler lock and the Manton lock? I hear the later is the correct one in the Tenn Mountain rifle, but many of the component kits come with the Siler and why is that? Also, what about a L&R Durs Egg lock? Is that period correct?

The Siler was one of the earliest reproduction flintlocks available. Bud Siler came up with it decades ago and for a long time it was about all that was commercially available so many "kits" were pre-inlet for it and many still are.

The Siler is a Germanic style lock. Notice the triangle shape to the pan. The Manton and Durs Egg are English style lock and are most recognized by the rounded pan.

Southern Mountain Rifles (SMR's) were made with English locks as a rule. Nobody has yet to provide evidence that any had Germanic locks.

Either the Manton or the Durs Egg would be appropriate for a SMR. They are almost identicle though the Manton is a little smaller.

Enjoy, J.D.

 

Thanks JD... I had no idea that Siler was a "new"... I had always thought it was a style of some sort. Good thing to know.

If anyone can help with the other items, it would be much appreciated.

 

[Col. Batguano]

thickness of the barrel across the flats. A weight is the lightest. D weight is the heaviest. It has nothing to do with the amount of steel, or actual weight. Thus, a "B weight" 7/8" 54 caliber barrel might actually be lighter than a 3/4" 32 caliber "A weight" barrel.

 

[drboompa]

I would never have the nerve to start a complete build from a blank stock. First, I would go to a place like Sportsmanguide.com and buy one of their kits which only take a bit of wood work. That would be my first time around. If that worked well, then I might progress to a more complex build like you guys are talking about. It almost like telling a kid to overhaul his car engine when he can't take off the carb. ha.

I will wait on the major build. Right now, I am buying completely made! ha. Hopefully one day I wil get on to the hand made ones. However, they sure look beautiful when completed. You guys work magic with your skills. :hatsoff:

 

[crockett]

I'm going to throw out some ideas that may help. If you look at the entire job it can be daunting but if you break it up into each little task then it becomes more do-able. On inletting the lock. I traced the outline of the plate and used the tracing as a template. I also beveled the edges of the lock as that was told to me by one of the better builders.
I would think about building a mountain man trade rifle- these were made by a variety of builders: Henry, Dickert, etc. The idea is that these were "plain Jane" Kentucky longrifles so you don't have to do a first class job on the stock finish to end up with something that would be very close to an original trade rifle. No stock carving or inlays. The Flintlock may also offer some advantage as after the lock is inlet you can center where the flash hole is to be drilled. On a percussion- I have found that the job is actually more difficult if the drum/nipple is already on the barrel because the lock has to be right on the money or you'll have to bend a hammer. Bending from side to side is easy but the back and forth is more difficult and you could possibly break the hammer. An under rib also requires a lot more work than a full stock with ramrod thimbles, another plus for the trade rifle.
TOW offers some kits with a lot of the work already done AND they used to offer a service to do some other work for a nominal fee if that's what you want. I'd work with them.
Finally, time is your best asset. Go slow. Also, be willing to make plenty of jigs, etc to accomplish whatever task is at hand. Do a lot of practicing on scrap wood. The last gun I built was from a blank piece of wood. I made a duplicate stock from scrap soft wood to practice on and I also practiced on other scrap wood. On a 2x6 I cut 4 barrel channels before doing the real thing on the maple. I also practiced checkering the wrist on a soft wood stock. I found skip line checkering a lot harder than I thought it would be and I would checker the wrist and then rasp/sand off the just done checkering and checker the wrist again. I think I did three or four wrist checkering jobs on the practice piece before doing the real stock.

 

[drboompa]

Very good advice.

 

Thanks for the advice Crockett. Can you point me to where I might see what a Mountain Trade rifle looks like? I know there were the Trade Rifles which were just short Brown Bess', but I don't think that is what you are talking about.

The gun I would like to make is just a plain gun, hence why I decided on a mountain rifle. No brass, no patch box, nothing fancy. Just browned steel where there is metal, but I would like to see what a Mountain Trade Rifle is too as that might be interesting.

Thanks,

John

 

[jdkerstetter]

Not Mountain Trade Rifle, just Trade Rifle or Indian Trade Rifle.

Track of the Wolf and others offer a Leman kit: http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Cate...1/HE-LEMAN-INDIAN-TRADE-RIFLE-PERC-PARTS-LIST

Also available in flintlock which as was indicated above, would be an easier build....and it just looks cooler: http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/607/1/LEMAN-TRADE-RIFLE-FLINT-PARTS-LIST

Enjoy, J.D.

 

I think that would be a harder build as the stock is not inlet for the barrel. I know I don't posses the skills to do the barrel channel just yet. I have no issues with having to fine tune the barrel channel, but to carve the entire barrel channel I don't think I could do just yet. It's a nice looking gun though, but I don't know if I like the brass on it. Looks too fancy.

 

[Col. Batguano]

ever set up a jig for a router before? YOu can use those pretty easily for most of the work for a straight barrel. YOu only need 2 bits, and the clean-up work can be done with normal hand tools