Flint Guns; more accidents than percussion?

[Carbon 6]

Anyone else care to comment?

Never saddle a dead horse.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

OK...,
So the definition of "accident" is... "an unfortunate incident that happens unexpectedly and unintentionally, typically resulting in damage or injury. " [my emphasis]

Flinters…, it's possible to have an AD with no prime in the pan, IF your thumb slips off the cock as you bring it back to the full cock position. I know of only one (1) documented case of it in my lifetime (I'm 56) where the sparks alone entered the touch hole and set off the rifle. In fact it's sooo rare, that my state legally considers a loaded flintlock with the priming powder removed as "unloaded" for purposes of transport to and from a hunting area.

Going to full cock..., the half cock notch is supposed to catch the cock (or the hammer on a caplock) but if you're far enough back, the fly on the tumbler may have engaged allowing the hammer or the cock to full fall.

Going off Half-Cocked..., both flinters and caplocks can have damaged sears or tumblers or they may simply be dirty, allowing the muzzleloader to fire from half-cock.

Finger cutting/chip in eye..., the flint is sharp and it's possible to snag the thumb on the flint when cocking the piece. This is normally a problem for reenactors shooting blanks for speed, and not persons on a range or hunting. A chip off the flint that lands in the eye is very rare, and again is confined to people shooting flinters without safety goggles i.e. military reenactors, not people hunting or on the range.

Jet from Touchhole..., it's possible for the touch hole to spit a hot piece of powder sideways from the flintlock. It might hit a person standing very close to the shooter on the same side of the lock. There is a part that's been used for 30 years to prevent this, it works great.

A hangfire…, is mostly a problem for caplocks, but it is possible for a flintlock. Nobody gets injured since the rifle or gun is pointed in a safe direction.
Loading a ball without powder …, is not an accident as it does not result in "damage or injury". It can happen to any muzzle loader.
Not seating the ball on the powder..., can happen to any muzzle loader, and a properly marked ramrod, properly observed, avoids this.
A stuck ball..., a problem not an accident. A CO2 discharger fixes this
Flash-in-the-pan..., again NOT an accident, and it happens to a caplock when the cap busts but the main charge does not fire. The shooter is pointing the rifle or gun or handgun in a safe direction when pulling the trigger. Simple clear the touch hole or the nipple and reprime or recap.

Caplocks, not repeating the above situations that happen to both…, Firing from a fall..., they are notorious for this. I know of a documented case in the past few years where a fellow fell onto his back while carrying his loaded and capped traditional rifle over his shoulder with a sling... it went off when he hit the ground. Many of the rifles at half-cock have the hammer face very close to the nipple, and so when the hammer is hit and the sear brakes there is a good possibility that cap is going off too. Flinters are much less likely for this, and using a hammer-stall device eliminates that situation.

The most common "accident" for muzzleloaders IS..., using the wrong powder (Thank you SMO for pointing that out ! ) AND the most common muzzleloader where that happens is...NOT traditional muzzleloaders of any kind. (See I avoided using the word "inline" ) One can go on YouTube and find several videos of such accidents using such rifles, but tough to find a person with a traditional rifle of flint or caplock that does the same.

LD

 

[curator]

Having worked with Boy Scouts for 30+ years at our various Council camps' rifle Ranges, I believe that shooting a muzzle loading percussion rifle is complicated enough. Flintlocks do have a steeper "learning curve". As a NRA Training Counselor, I have taught the NRA/NMLRA Muzzle Loading Basic and Instructor courses to hundreds of Scout leaders and Camp Counselors as well and few are really up to managing the complexity of both flintlocks and percussion guns on the firing line at the same time. The priming stage of the loading process is also much easier to control and supervise with percussion rifles with no priming flask to worry about. I concur (reluctantly) wth the BSA's safety policy.

 

[LRB]

I have had more than one flintlock fire without priming. When you have a vent liner coned inside leaving about 1/32 between the main charge and the outer face of the liner, it is not as rare as you may think.

 

[oldwood]

Some time ago, I tried to get BSA to change their policy about allowing Boy Scouts to shoot flint guns in addition to percussion and in-line. It was a losing argument. The individual I spoke with at the NRA (name withheld deliberately) stated that flint gun accidents are about 6x more common than when shooting percussion or in-lines. Since I have no experience other than by observation with in-lines, I'll limit the discussion to flint and cap guns.

In my personal experience I've had many more difficulties to get cap guns to shoot reliably, and those copper # 11's seem to blow apart all the time, presenting much more risk of fragmentation (yes, eye protection is mandatory). Dry-balls are much more difficult to clear, and pssst-bangs are much more common than with flint.

Other than getting cut by a sharp flint, a shattering flint, burned by TH gas venting, or loading over a closed frizzen with a flint scraping it, (unintended discharge) I can't think of actually WHY they would provide more of a hazard than cap guns, but others here are likely far more knowledgeable about the subject than I.

One clue he DID offer though, was that when he teaches Rifle and Shotgun instructors, most of them come to the class with experience in both arms. When he teaches new Instructors in ML'ers, most come to the class with pretty much zero experience in them.

Anyone else care to comment?

 

[oldwood]

Some time ago, I tried to get BSA to change their policy about allowing Boy Scouts to shoot flint guns in addition to percussion and in-line. It was a losing argument. The individual I spoke with at the NRA (name withheld deliberately) stated that flint gun accidents are about 6x more common than when shooting percussion or in-lines. Since I have no experience other than by observation with in-lines, I'll limit the discussion to flint and cap guns.

In my personal experience I've had many more difficulties to get cap guns to shoot reliably, and those copper # 11's seem to blow apart all the time, presenting much more risk of fragmentation (yes, eye protection is mandatory). Dry-balls are much more difficult to clear, and pssst-bangs are much more common than with flint.

Other than getting cut by a sharp flint, a shattering flint, burned by TH gas venting, or loading over a closed frizzen with a flint scraping it, (unintended discharge) I can't think of actually WHY they would provide more of a hazard than cap guns, but others here are likely far more knowledgeable about the subject than I.

One clue he DID offer though, was that when he teaches Rifle and Shotgun instructors, most of them come to the class with experience in both arms. When he teaches new Instructors in ML'ers, most come to the class with pretty much zero experience in them.

Anyone else care to comment?

 

[Treestalker]

As an assistant scoutmaster years ago, I was visiting a Scout camp in Missouri and the local hosting troop was having opening exercises including the firing of a small (about 2" bore) 2'-3' long cannon that appeared to be cast iron (steel liner?). That thing went off with a roar a six-pounder would be proud of and jumped back like a scalded dog! After the exercises were over, I asked the Scouts how much powder they were using. They said 'about a cup full'. I don't know what powder they used, or if the barrel was lined, etc. They said they had shot it that way for years. I told them it was WAY overloaded. They looked at me like a bull looking at a ******* calf. I am confident my advice was ignored. Totally. I often wonder at the benevolent hand of providence that tradition says preserves drunks, idiots and small children. To this day, some 20 years later, I cringe to see in the news about multiple injuries/deaths at a scout camp somewhere in Missouri. The point is, what expertise ( or lack thereof) by the Scout leaders is being brought to the table? I believe it varies widely, and while flintlocks could be taught, I'd hesitate to do it in setting with multiple brand new flintlock shooters in attendance.

 

[Grenadier1758]

There is also the possibility of a hot ember in the barrel igniting the powder charge as it is loaded. This too is a very rare occurrence and can happen to both caplock or flintlock. It is more likely in a situation where the firearm is fired multiple times before the bore is wiped to remove residual fouling.

As far as a flintlock firing with no pan priming, it has happened to me. I won't call it accidental, but rather unintended. My fowler had failed to fire, no sparks. I knapped the flint and pointed the fowler in a safe direction to watch for sparks. Needless to say, it sparked successfully and set off the main charge

One observation and one covered in our disservice thread, is that the scouts watching a flintlock fire would become overly concerned about the flash in the pan and develop a flinch. Not about safety, but due to a lack of experience in some scout leaders thinking the flame from the touch hole is a potential safety hazard.

 

[oldwood]

Flintlocks and percussion locks are just mechanically different. Thus , if you don't learn the simple advantages and disadvantages of each system , a safety issue can arise.
Years back , we used to have public field days at a local club. One of the events was , Shoot a muzzleloader .....We used percussion rifles w/reduced powder charges @ 10 yd targets , totally supervised.
Percussion rifles were hands down easier to manage in a situation like this. The public responded beyond expectations to the m/l benches. We were busy all day. It would have been very difficult to Keep 8 flint lock rifles in operation all day w/that crowd. All we did was wipe the bore , dump 10 grains fff down the bore , patched ball seated on the powder , cap , and shoot. Very quick , easy , and all got to fire a m/l rifle that day.
Flintlock rifles even using the highest quality lock on the market are limited to the quality of the flint employed. Perhaps 20 to 30 ignitions max can be expected. Percussion caps solve the flint problem , providing they are new and dry. Advantages of flint vs percussion is very easy access to the powder charge inside the barrel w/ flint system. Less problems getting instant ignition in humid wet weather..To me after years in the field I like flint for hunting. Much more trouble w/ percussion system in the damp.
Bottom line , learn how each system works , apply common mechanical sense to use of each , and be safe.
Good book..."FLINTLOCKS" A practical guide for their use and appreciation. By ERIC A. BYE. National Muzzleloading Rifle Assn. website.

 

[FishDFly]

"I would agree accidents are more likely, primarily due to vent blast"

The NMLRA and TMLRA both require flintlock shields for those shooting flintlocks. It's a safety requirement to protect fellow shooters from the vent blast.

From what I have seen attending matches is that flintlock shooters are more safety minded and have a higher level of knowledge when shooting M/Ls. For the most part they graduated from cap locks to flintlocks.

 

[Sparkitoff]

I have heard more stories of uneducated or misinformed shooters putting smokeless powder in a modern muzzleloader than any other type of muzzleloader "accident". Next in frequency would be the same in a traditional caplock followed closely by an over-charge in a caplock. My experience with flintlocks is that the people who are using them have done some research, have a mentor or are otherwise experienced. In some instances, doing something out of the ordinary with a flintlock may result in nothing more than sparks. Without prime or the right kind of prime and appropriate powder there may not be a discharge at all. Surely the wrong powder or an overcharge may lead to some sort of accident but I think the frequency is much less taking into account the volume of flintlocks in the hands of shooters that are being used.

 

[Carbon 6]

Are flintlocks more dangerous or is training, safety, knowledge, and inspection deficient?
Having fired flintlocks since I was an early teenager without incidence and without BSA or NRA guidance I would have to conclude that it is the latter.

People are really what's dangerous. Flintlock training should be individualized not standardized.

 

[Kansas Jake]

It is interesting that no one mentioned a broken ramrod causing an accident. Not uncommon with either system.

 

[Carbon 6]

It is interesting that no one mentioned a broken ramrod causing an accident. Not uncommon with either system.

Don't forget all those India guns blowing up.
Oh, the children

No one has mentioned the most dangerous part of all yet either. The Projectile.
It seems ironic that the most dangerous part ends up being the least dangerous or having the least amount of focus.

 

[Rifleman1776]

I agree with the others. You are dealing with ignorance and closed minds. The only danger unique to flintlocks is small accidental cuts.

 

[Grenadier1758]

There have also been a number of USA sourced guns that have blown up. The instances I am aware of are related to use of smokeless powder, separation of ball from charge, or in the well documented case of the India made gun, a bore obstruction.

Safety procedures of muzzle control at all stages of the loading and shooting process carry the focus of control of the projectile.

 

[Carbon 6]

The only danger unique to flintlocks is small accidental cuts.

Have to practice that first-aid merit badge some how.

 

[Carbon 6]

There have also been a number of USA sourced guns that have blown up. The instances I am aware of are related to use of smokeless powder, separation of ball from charge, or in the well documented case of the India made gun, a bore obstruction.

I was being sarcastic about the India guns.

Safety procedures of muzzle control at all stages of the loading and shooting process carry the focus of control of the projectile.

Well said.

 

[smo]

Have to practice that first-aid merit badge some how.

Well they do teach you too always cut towards someone else!

 

[Pete G]

Flintlock rifles even using the highest quality lock on the market are limited to the quality of the flint employed. Perhaps 20 to 30 ignitions max can be expected.

Not true at all. Most quality locks deliver about 75-100.