Flint Guns; more accidents than percussion?

[Col. Batguano]

I think from all these posts (thank you all very much) we can conclude that it isn't so much the type of gun that's being taught, but the person that's doing the teaching that makes the most difference.

Flint guns add a measure of complication to the procedures and precautions that cap guns do not have, and each has to be manually performed. Every time you introduce a human action in to the situation that presents another opportunity for a mistake. Many / most of them do not produce an injury, but more of a frustration (failure to fire). Now when it comes to actually SHOOTING them, because of the longer barrel dwell and pan flash, they add quite a bit of extra challenge to accurate shooting. Since most Scouts shoot off the bench most of the time, that's of a lesser concern, but it is still there.

Now when it comes to changing NRA's or BSA's mind on the subject regarding policy, that's a bigger challenge.

FYI; according to the "No Fun Book" Scout units are NOT allowed to operate artillery pieces, though Council level events COULD use them (such as for flag ceremonies for Wood Badge). I haven't staffed a Wood Badge course yet, but if I do, I will volunteer my 1" Naval gun for use at those ceremonies.

 

[tenngun]

A little bias can swing a statistic. A potential problem in a flintlock that could have come out badly is scored as a accident because it’s a flintlock, while the same is not counted in a percussions as it was caught before anything bad or near bad happened.
People who don’t smoke get high blood pressure, MIs,lung cancer, diabetes ect, but when a smoker gets the same thing it’s chocked up to his smoking, that may or may not have been the cause.
When a driver dies with a seat belt on in-an accident it’s just bad luck, with out a seat belt it’s assumed he would have survived had he been smart enough to go click.
While we know smoking is hard on you or it’s stupid not to wear a seat belt some times being smart won’t save you.
If you think flintlocks are more dangerous then any dumb mistake that could have been avoided would have not happened had one not had a flintlock. While the same mistake with a ‘safer’ percussion is just being stupid or lack of training ect.

 

[SDSmlf]

Just curious, do the Scouts still allow and/or teach use of flint and steel to start fires? Remember that being a bloody mess at times. Pretty ‘dangerous’ if every scraped or nicked finger is counted as an accident in some database ..... probably 6X more dangerous than matches.......

 

[hanshi]

.....and, FWIW, although I can't speak for anyone else, I never, never, ever have to "fiddle" with any of the flint locks I own.

 

[Artificer]

Having worked with Boy Scouts for 30+ years at our various Council camps' rifle Ranges, I believe that shooting a muzzle loading percussion rifle is complicated enough. Flintlocks do have a steeper "learning curve". As a NRA Training Counselor, I have taught the NRA/NMLRA Muzzle Loading Basic and Instructor courses to hundreds of Scout leaders and Camp Counselors as well and few are really up to managing the complexity of both flintlocks and percussion guns on the firing line at the same time. The priming stage of the loading process is also much easier to control and supervise with percussion rifles with no priming flask to worry about. I concur (reluctantly) wth the BSA's safety policy.

Back in the early 1980's, my Confederate Reenacting Unit put on an Infantry AND Artillery firing demonstration just after dark at the National Jamboree in Virginia. When the original 12 pound Napoleon went off, it seemed time stood still for a second and even the powder we were loading hung suspended for a moment. There were no accidents and everyone loved it.

I was an Assistant Scout Master for a High Adventure Scout Troop in the late 80's and we did more adventurous/arduous things in one year than I did as a Scout in my entire scouting career. We required parents get involved, unless it was a single Mom who might only be able to provide some transportation at times or help at our Annual Pancake Breakfast.

Unlike when I was a Scout in the early 1960's and nationwide, most boys today do not grow up hunting or plinking. So introduction to shooting should normally be confined to shooting .22 cal. rifles, one shot at a time. It is a large step to doing percussion guns and considering how insurance for Troops has gone so high, some troops won't even do muzzle loading at all.

The answer of course is to go along with what the Boy Scout Council advises on shooting percussion guns and THEN teach interested Scouts in shooting flintlocks in a "Non" Scouting Sponsored event.

Gus

 

[45man]

The only accidental misfire was with my flintlock. Moisture got in and I had a hang fire at a deer. raining of course. I was taking the rifle off my shoulder when it went off for a clean miss.
Now a cap lock is dangerous with the caps used. I had Italian and RWS caps that shattered and stuck in my nose or chin but glasses saved my eyes. Metal cups are too hard. I only use Rem or CCI now. I do use the bad caps to clear the nipples but I hold the gun upside down at my hip. I won 1000 junk caps at a shoot that I will NEVER look down sights with. Picking brass out of my chin got old.
Safety is first and as long as the gun is pointed down range there is never danger with a flint lock.

 

[The Crisco Kid]

Experts.
X = the unknown factor.
Pert = erect nipple.

Ex is a has-been. Spurt is a drip under pressure.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Ex is a has-been. Spurt is a drip under pressure.

Lol....I prefer erect nipple

 

[tenngun]

Lol....I prefer erect nipple

Oh, That Benny Hill

 

[Pete G]

The only accidental misfire was with my flintlock. Moisture got in and I had a hang fire at a deer. raining of course. I was taking the rifle off my shoulder when it went off for a clean miss.

I did the exact thing with a cap lock one wet morning.

 

[Boomerang]

It's a proven fact that flintlocks are more dangerous than caplocks. Up until around 1840, more people were killed with flintlocks than caplocks!

 

[hanshi]

It's a proven fact that flintlocks are more dangerous than caplocks. Up until around 1840, more people were killed with flintlocks than caplocks!

Alright! Finally, incontrovertible truth; they ARE more dangerous!

 

[Kilted Cowboy]

I was a scout leader for most of the 90's and early 2000's. Also back in the late 60's as a kid.
Noticed a big change in scouting. Got way too PC for me. You can not debate anything with council or national.
Don't get me wrong I loved the program as it was founded. But they kind of left old timers like me in the dust.
We never put our scouts in danger and I do not see a difference in the safety of a flintlock, percussion, or modern rifle.
It is all about education, range safety, and competent leadership

 

[bud in pa]

As Ron White would say "you can't fix stupid".

 

[Don H]

As a Scoutmaster of a troop and the committee chair of a Venture Crew (ages 14-21) I have some knowledge of this subject. The manual we need to follow in reference to shooting sports in BSA is the BSA National Shooting Sports Manual https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/outdoor program/pdf/30931_wb.pdf

Page 53 under the Boy Scout and Varsity Scout shooting program states that flintlock rifles and shotguns are not approved. The Venture program section does not have the restriction on flintlocks, therefor I consider that they are approved for use in that program.

My Venture Crew shoots flintlocks on a regular basis and to my knowledge this is keeping with the guidelines set forth in the BSA Shooting Sports Manual.

I can't address, and frankly don't understand why the flintlock restrictions are on the Boy Scout and Varsity program and not the Venturing program. (Note: the BSA Varsity program was discontinued last year).

 

[Col. Batguano]

Page 54 deals with Venturing and Sea Scouting ML'ers. It says percussion cap or in-line guns are to be used, but does not specifically state that flint guns are DISapproved.

As I said before, It really comes down much more to the competency of the instructor much more so than the idiosynchracies of the weapon system. The most important element in ANY shooting session is safety, and after that, fun.

 

[Don H]

Yes, my point exactly. The manual specifically forbids use by Boy Scouts but not Venture Crews. This is how we justify allowing their use in our Venture program here. The guys shoot black powder several times a year including flint and percussion rifles and percussion revolvers. Great Fun!

 

[Carbon 6]

Wow!
The Boys Scouts seem to be more restrictive and regulatory than the Federal Government on this subject.

 

[Don H]

Lawsuits, an overabundance of caution and lack of common sense dictate BSA policy.

 

[XVIIc Wheelock]

Page 54 deals with Venturing and Sea Scouting ML'ers. It says percussion cap or in-line guns are to be used, but does not specifically state that flint guns are DISapproved.

As I said before, It really comes down much more to the competency of the instructor much more so than the idiosynchracies of the weapon system. The most important element in ANY shooting session is safety, and after that, fun.

Wait a minute...I was in the sea scouts in Corpus Christi for 6 years and ML's were not a minute thought...only sun burn!