For anyone considering an Indian manufactured Flintlock

[NorthFork]

You just contradicted yourself,

You understand they are but they are not.

Time for me to bow out of this ridiculous argument that serves no purpose.

I think you misunderstood him.

 

[tenngun]

As a piece shot with blanks for re-enacting.... well there's been a few over the recent years that have gone 'boom' and have gotten publicity.. But most will likely be just fine through out their miserable lives. MISERABLE as I agree with several posters here that re-enactors 'abuse' their guns. Don't clean properly, don't take care of, etc. I've seen it. Most (but not all!!) re-enactors guns look like heck.

Now comes the part that I care about. Live fire. A hunting velocity powder load pushing either a hunting type shot load or single ball. I DON'T TRUST the common INDIAN made gun to safely do this time after time, year after year. And that's with a reasonable level of cleaning and maintenance.

Proper hunting loads generate considerable pressure compared to blank loads. 150 grains as a blank load was discussed earlier in this thread. I would expect ANY Indian gun to be able to handle 150 grains of ffg or fffg and a paper wadding. Should we get Lyman to pressure test this? Now compare that to 80 to 120 grains ffg or fffg and 1 ounce to 2 ounce of shot plus wadding or 80 to 120 grains ffg or fffg and the typical ball/patch or wad of 50 to 75 cal.

Yet folk that use them are not getting failures

 

[dave_person]

Hi SpringfieldArt,
My point was some people do not take care of their guns and the cause of the "accident" highlighted in the beginning may have been poor maintenance. I am glad you maintain them well but many don't. My real beef with all of the repro Besses is they are all insults to the highly trained tradesmen and women (yes women) who made one of the finest military muskets of the 18th century. I see this every time at living history events. Folks have historically impeccable clothing and accoutrements, which they worked hard on or spent a lot on. They exalt the period craftsmanship and resourcefulness. But they carry a repro musket that would never have passed any period inspection. And then you see them at events and half the guns don't fire after 1 or 2 rounds when Brown Besses were expected to ignite charges 40 times in a row with one flint. Of course, with the way many treat those guns, they don't deserve better. Of course, we can always argue they cannot afford a proper gun made by a custom gunsmith, and that is right because even if they could afford them there are not many custom gunsmiths in America who can make British guns worth a damn. So I understand the attraction of these repros, there are not many other good choices. My desire is that those carrying them take care of them to keep them safe and do not represent them to anybody as representative of the work of 18th century gun makers.

dave

 

[FlinterNick]

So when was the last time you saw proofs on a American made ml barrel?
I’ve build guns for over forty years, not a bunch but I’ve been shooting ml for years and to the best of my knowledge I’ve never had a proofed barrel, and certainly never proofed one.

most are made from bored solid steel tubing on a lathe, then draw cut from blanks, or tapered round. The barrel proofing isn’t really a concern for me, I’ve been shooting navy arms and dixie gun works charlevilles and Bess’s for a long time, i trust their barrels. Have I ever had to have one fixed, Yeap a few used one’s i picked up. But all were defective from user neglect.

Most of the Indian barrels I’ve seen are drawn over a mandrel (DOM), DOM barrels need to be welded correctly to withstand great pressure, i just don’t trust DOM from distrubotors that sell cheap knockoffs. Loyalist Arms uses an Indian gun maker that makes their gun barrels from solid steel tubing, not DOM.

And personally I woudln’t buy a DOM barrel from an American Gun maker, there’s a better way to make a muzzle loader barrel.

But still, everytime i seen an indian made musket … they just look like junk to me, I don’t even like working on them for other folks.

 

[NorthFork]

Hi SpringfieldArt,
My point was some people do not take care of their guns and the cause of the "accident" highlighted in the beginning may have been poor maintenance. I am glad you maintain them well but many don't. My real beef with all of the repro Besses is they are all insults to the highly trained tradesmen and women (yes women) who made one of the finest military muskets of the 18th century. I see this every time at living history events. Folks have historically impeccable clothing and accoutrements, which they worked hard on or spent a lot on. They exalt the period craftsmanship and resourcefulness. But they carry a repro musket that would never have passed any period inspection. And then you see them at events and half the guns don't fire after 1 or 2 rounds when Brown Besses were expected to ignite charges 40 times in a row with one flint. Of course, with the way many treat those guns, they don't deserve better.

dave

This I also agree with 100%. I dare say if one of your fine arms was subjected to the abuse most re-enactors put their guns through, yours might fail too. And it would be of no fault of yours. And there is no sarcasm meant in my post. I saw a Pedersoli Indian Trade Musket (same as mine) two years ago. I didn't recognize it at all. Not because of a refinish or owner changes, but because of abuse. Rust, and I mean deep pitted type rust and a stock that looked like it was dragged behind a truck down a gravel road. Real sad. Mine has a few 'character' marks, but any reasonable shooter would see that it has been taken care of but used. No rust, no pits. A few minor dings and some color patina. But it has a shiny bore and goes bang every time. I MIGHT even be able to get 40 shots as you describe from one flint WITHOUT knapping before failure. And that is after at least 1000 shots (I gave up keeping track this summer). Pedersoli's are not great. They are good overall. India made arms are poor to middlin' at best. I'd rather deal with Ped's issues than some unknown India arm. At least I can get parts for a Ped. I know cause I had to order some for a pistol over the big pond thru Italian Fireams Group during the height of covid. Took 3 months and I was back in service. This was for a pistol I, and I repeat 'I' screwed up, not Pedersoli.

 

[Surfinator58]

I've been agreeing with you up to this point. "Compete with Pedersoli"???? A Ped costs twice as much as any similar model Indian musket. And has been proofed and is approved for sale as a firearm. And is generally better built, more reliable, more durable, and closer to an original than the Indian model. The only thing the Indian models have going for them is a cheap price.

I give you credit for your post up until the part closer to an original which the pedestals are far from they have the wrong manufacture date the CNC machinery cuts the edges to Sharp all of the modern proof marks cautions manufacturing stamps and black powder only stamps have to be ground off and filled with weld in order to make it look like an original firearm also the polyurethane finish has to be stripped and reapplied once the sharp edges of the CNC stock have been sanded down so I'm going with no

 

[maillemaker]

You just contradicted yourself,

You understand they are but they are not.

Time for me to bow out of this ridiculous argument that serves no purpose.

No contradiction at all. I understand their intent, but I also understand what they are actually manufacturing. I don't understand why there is so much resistance to and controversy around the idea that they are playing games to sell a firearm without actually selling a functional firearm so that they can dodge laws and liability related to selling functional firearms.

 

[Rock Home Isle]

No contradiction at all. I understand their intent, but I also understand what they are actually manufacturing. I don't understand why there is so much resistance to and controversy around the idea that they are playing games to sell a firearm without actually selling a functional firearm so that they can dodge laws and liability related to selling functional firearms.

Look up the definition of “Contradiction”…and yes you did and have…

 

[sturmkatze]

But a Pedersoli ain't likely to blow up if sane loading procedures are adhered to. And was proofed and is intended to be used as a firearm.

When do the Indian ones blow up? Oh yes, when dummies don't clean their guns

 

[sturmkatze]

It's not an opinion, it's a fact. This is nothing like taste. This is simply stating that if someone manufactures something as a decoration, and it in any way has a problem because someone after-the-fact made it into a gun, the manufacturer bears no responsibility for what happens. This is not an opinion. This is a fact.

I don't know why you would think or expect the manufacturer to bear any responsibility for the object being used as a firearm. I don't know how you think this is an opinion.

No, your's is an opinion. You know what they say about opinions. You just keep going on.

 

[sturmkatze]

Yes, we all understand the game that is being played, but no, they are not manufacturing them to be shot. If they were manufacturing them to be shot, they would be functional firearms. As manufactured, they are non-functional replicas. And that is likely all they will stand behind them as and all the law will see they sold.

And you keep going on.

 

[sturmkatze]

No contradiction at all. I understand their intent, but I also understand what they are actually manufacturing. I don't understand why there is so much resistance to and controversy around the idea that they are playing games to sell a firearm without actually selling a functional firearm so that they can dodge laws and liability related to selling functional firearms.

And you've joined the ignore list. Buh-bye.

 

[toot]

That's an opinion -- which you keep repeating over and over. No matter how many times you say horse feces taste good, most of us will say they don't and won't try them. You're welcome to your feces though.

as stated it is a matter of taste! if it don't taste good spit it out!

 

[FlinterNick]

When do the Indian ones blow up? Oh yes, when dummies don't clean their guns

Well, not cleaning a gun shouldn’t make a gun blow-up, using an excessive charge of 150 Tripple F could make it blow up, which was the main catalyst.

 

[toot]

if they all are pipe bombs, why do people continue buying them,? HUH?

 

[toot]

most are made from bored solid steel tubing on a lathe, then draw cut from blanks, or tapered round. The barrel proofing isn’t really a concern for me, I’ve been shooting navy arms and dixie gun works charlevilles and Bess’s for a long time, i trust their barrels. Have I ever had to have one fixed, Yeap a few used one’s i picked up. But all were defective from user neglect.

Most of the Indian barrels I’ve seen are drawn over a mandrel (DOM), DOM barrels need to be welded correctly to withstand great pressure, i just don’t trust DOM from distrubotors that sell cheap knockoffs. Loyalist Arms uses an Indian gun maker that makes their gun barrels from solid steel tubing, not DOM.

And personally I woudln’t buy a DOM barrel from an American Gun maker, there’s a better way to make a muzzle loader barrel.

But still, everytime i seen an indian made musket … they just look like junk to me, I don’t even like working on them for other folks.

is there a film on the DOM, process? if so I would like to see the process.

 

[FlinterNick]

I give you credit for your post up until the part closer to an original which the pedestals are far from they have the wrong manufacture date the CNC machinery cuts the edges to Sharp all of the modern proof marks cautions manufacturing stamps and black powder only stamps have to be ground off and filled with weld in order to make it look like an original firearm also the polyurethane finish has to be stripped and reapplied once the sharp edges of the CNC stock have been sanded down so I'm going with no

Not sue I can follow this post very well… but I disagree. A pedersoli musket whether its a charleville or a bess is a higher quality item than an Indian made musket. Now not to withstand the average pedersoli is around 1500, which I believe is very overpriced. I think if you could get a pedersoli for 1,000 vs an Indian made gun for $600, you ought to go for the pedersoli musket. Even the older pedersoli muskets are a much better quality item.

 

[FlinterNick]

is there a film on the DOM, process? if so I would like to see the process.

I think there’s a video of the an Indian barrel being made in a shop by hand. But I’m not certain.

 

[toot]

Save a few more pennies and buy a Pedersoli Indian Trade Musket. For clarification due to this thread, NOT made in India, but made in Italy! I own one and it's close enough to being HC/PC for me. Most importantly it's dead on reliable and accurate.

a few more pennies, what planet are you on?

 

[FlinterNick]

if they all are pipe bombs, why do people continue buying them,? HUH?

The same reason why people harbor freight tools….. and cheap tools are more expensive to own. Cheap muskets are more expensive to own… look at the poor fella on the Brown Bess FB site whose veteran arms bess stock broke at the wrist and lock mortise. Cheap gun bad, bad wood. I’ve seen over a dozen broken indian made stocks, 1 or 2 broken Pedersoli’s over my lifetime.