For anyone considering an Indian manufactured Flintlock

[Snake Pleskin]

There sure are a lot of Democrats on this website! I'm going to Twitter and Facebook I find every time I'm asked to cite a reference and I do they just ignore the facts and science and continue on their merry way quite a bit like some individuals here! HP white is a respected Laboratory for testing they say the guns are safe, rudyard a member from Europe has posted I think it's number 71 where he has taken his guns also made in India to a British proof house and all of which have passed with flying colors! When faced with undeniable truth and factual data backed up by science and experience the same individuals refuse to acknowledge that gun makers in India having been at it for centuries still cannot make anything that is trustworthy.

what the hejj does that have to do with Democrats? NOTHING! People all over the world have been making firearms for hundreds of years. Oldest well know manuf. in the world, Beretta! NOT the USA! Many countries manuf. items that are every bit as good as anything we have in the USA. In fact, the USA manuf. very little that any one wants any more. We are more of a middle man, and technology creator. We build rockets, planes, cars etc but use parts and technology from around the world in doing it.

 

[tenngun]

I don’t need to prove anything … the ordinance records show what was acceptable and what was not Indian made Muskets and Pedersoli Muskets are not in line with ordinance requirements and would not pass inspection

I understand, although original besses I’ve seen seem to be less then uniform. Each regiment I believe had an armorer there was no interchangeable parts and repairs had to be hand done.
I do recall a quote about the kings musket that said ‘if not exceeding ill bored, as many of them are’. Sometimes me thinks that we place a quality on old guns that wasn’t there.
But just for S and G we look at a good musket from cr 1750 and a random ‘second model brown Bess’ repo, we can find all sorts of flaws that don’t match up.
So do we say that if you can’t afford a five grand plus bench copy you can’t play?
None of my guns will ‘pass muster’. And though I’m not military all of my outfits fail.
Even my hand sewing ain’t up to par of a professional tailor or his seamstress employee.
A $700 copy from Loyalist shoots, and shoots well, and looks at least as much like an original as my kettles and pots.
I have glasses. But most ‘middleing’ sorts did not, and if they did was mostly readers. So should I be banned from events?
For safety sake we don’t use plain canvas tentage at events, for taste, even if we do period recipes, we eat a more varied diet.
Most of us tend to be a mite full in the body and long in the tooth. I dare say 90% of today’s reinactors could not fit in any clothing worn by real soldiers back in the day.and how many of us sleep six to a wedge tent?
While we strive to be correct we do live in the here and now

 

[Snake Pleskin]

I understand, although original besses I’ve seen seem to be less then uniform. Each regiment I believe had an armorer there was no interchangeable parts and repairs had to be hand done.
I do recall a quote about the kings musket that said ‘if not exceeding ill bored, as many of them are’. Sometimes me thinks that we place a quality on old guns that wasn’t there.
But just for S and G we look at a good musket from cr 1750 and a random ‘second model brown Bess’ repo, we can find all sorts of flaws that don’t match up.
So do we say that if you can’t afford a five grand plus bench copy you can’t play?
None of my guns will ‘pass muster’. And though I’m not military all of my outfits fail.
Even my hand sewing ain’t up to par of a professional tailor or his seamstress employee.
A $700 copy from Loyalist shoots, and shoots well, and looks at least as much like an original as my kettles and pots.
I have glasses. But most ‘middleing’ sorts did not, and if they did was mostly readers. So should I be banned from events?
For safety sake we don’t use plain canvas tentage at events, for taste, even if we do period recipes, we eat a more varied diet.
Most of us tend to be a mite full in the body and long in the tooth. I dare say 90% of today’s reinactors could not fit in any clothing worn by real soldiers back in the day.and how many of us sleep six to a wedge tent?
While we strive to be correct we do live in the here and now

Pedersoli firearms pass all proofing tests etc. Italian firearms producers have been proofing firearms long before anyone in America knew what it was or how to do it.

 

[Snake Pleskin]

Pedersoli firearms pass all proofing tests etc. Italian firearms producers have been proofing firearms long before anyone in America knew what it was or how to do it.

 

[Snake Pleskin]

I understand, although original besses I’ve seen seem to be less then uniform. Each regiment I believe had an armorer there was no interchangeable parts and repairs had to be hand done.
I do recall a quote about the kings musket that said ‘if not exceeding ill bored, as many of them are’. Sometimes me thinks that we place a quality on old guns that wasn’t there.
But just for S and G we look at a good musket from cr 1750 and a random ‘second model brown Bess’ repo, we can find all sorts of flaws that don’t match up.
So do we say that if you can’t afford a five grand plus bench copy you can’t play?
None of my guns will ‘pass muster’. And though I’m not military all of my outfits fail.
Even my hand sewing ain’t up to par of a professional tailor or his seamstress employee.
A $700 copy from Loyalist shoots, and shoots well, and looks at least as much like an original as my kettles and pots.
I have glasses. But most ‘middleing’ sorts did not, and if they did was mostly readers. So should I be banned from events?
For safety sake we don’t use plain canvas tentage at events, for taste, even if we do period recipes, we eat a more varied diet.
Most of us tend to be a mite full in the body and long in the tooth. I dare say 90% of today’s reinactors could not fit in any clothing worn by real soldiers back in the day.and how many of us sleep six to a wedge tent?
While we strive to be correct we do live in the here and now

yes, I guess everyone should take a dump where ever they want to for the sake of authenticity!

 

[tenngun]

Pedersoli firearms pass all proofing tests etc. Italian firearms producers have been proofing firearms long before anyone in America knew what it was or how to do it.

Well they were proofing about the time America was discovered, but the first guns that came to America had all been proofed. Even Indian trade guns were all proofed.
I don’t think the US ever passed any proofing requirements, and none of todays barrels makers for ml proof
I did make a PVC ‘gun’ one time to experiment. A ‘half inch’ hot water pipe, and it stood five shots before splitting. I dare say after the first as a ‘proof charge’ it wasn’t safe to shoot.

 

[tenngun]

yes, I guess everyone should take a dump where ever they want to for the sake of authenticity!

I do think making latrines in camp was well known for some time. Even the Greeks found that Apollo was less likely to send a plague if they had latrines, Rome was very concerned with them their camps and I’m pretty sure a soldier in British or American armies learned there value pretty quick. As camp punishment was a mite unpleasant

 

[FlinterNick]

I understand, although original besses I’ve seen seem to be less then uniform. Each regiment I believe had an armorer there was no interchangeable parts and repairs had to be hand done.
I do recall a quote about the kings musket that said ‘if not exceeding ill bored, as many of them are’. Sometimes me thinks that we place a quality on old guns that wasn’t there.
But just for S and G we look at a good musket from cr 1750 and a random ‘second model brown Bess’ repo, we can find all sorts of flaws that don’t match up.
So do we say that if you can’t afford a five grand plus bench copy you can’t play?
None of my guns will ‘pass muster’. And though I’m not military all of my outfits fail.
Even my hand sewing ain’t up to par of a professional tailor or his seamstress employee.
A $700 copy from Loyalist shoots, and shoots well, and looks at least as much like an original as my kettles and pots.
I have glasses. But most ‘middleing’ sorts did not, and if they did was mostly readers. So should I be banned from events?
For safety sake we don’t use plain canvas tentage at events, for taste, even if we do period recipes, we eat a more varied diet.
Most of us tend to be a mite full in the body and long in the tooth. I dare say 90% of today’s reinactors could not fit in any clothing worn by real soldiers back in the day.and how many of us sleep six to a wedge tent?
While we strive to be correct we do live in the here and now

There many reasons why a pedersoli wouldn’t pass inspection, one major factor is the barrel, its too small in the breech and the caliber was too small. Indian made barrels wouldn’t have passed either because they don’t conform to a specific pattern, some are large but the taper of the barrel is often wrong entirely.

Another factor is the stocks on both, while pedersoli is stocked in the correct walnut (however not English walnut) but the pedersoli stock does not conform to the specific British ordinance pattern, the wrist is too long and the butt stock is small.
Indian Stocks are not walnut, while their stock patterns are a little closer, the ordinance fall back to walnut was other species of walnut such as European Walnut or Beech.

Locks, the Locks had to meet strict pattern requirements, the pedersoli Grice lock is too small and neither conform to the specific patterns.

While both Pedersoli and Indian guns may very well have passed a proof test, they never would have made it far enough in the process to be sent to the Crown’s proof houses.

 

[tenngun]

There many reasons why a pedersoli wouldn’t pass inspection, one major factor is the barrel, its too small in the breech and the caliber was too small. Indian made barrels wouldn’t have passed either because they don’t conform to a specific pattern, some are large but the taper of the barrel is often wrong entirely.

Another factor is the stocks on both, while pedersoli is stocked in the correct walnut (however not English walnut) but the pedersoli stock does not conform to the specific British ordinance pattern, the wrist is too long and the butt stock is small.
Indian Stocks are not walnut, while their stock patterns are a little closer, the ordinance fall back to walnut was other species of walnut such as European Walnut or Beech.

Locks, the Locks had to meet strict pattern requirements, the pedersoli Grice lock is too small and neither conform to the specific patterns.

While both Pedersoli and Indian guns may very well have passed a proof test, they never would have made it far enough in the process to be sent to the Crown’s proof houses.

Whichs
circles back to the original point of my post

 

[FlinterNick]

Whichs
circles back to the original point of my post

Sorry, I just don’t go for the claim that Indian musket makers of today make a musket that is of equal quality to a British ordnance pattern musket. The claim that they’ve been making muskets for 300 years because their ancestors (predecessors) may have worked in an East India Co. Arms factory has no bearing at all on the quality of an Indian made musket today. One has nothing to do with the other.

Americans have been making muskets and rifles in North America since the first blacksmiths and gunsmiths opened up shops in the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries. They made to make their guns to comply with local laws that enforced the Crown’s requirements (if they were a crown colony), it just has nothing to do with the quality of Colerain barrel or Rifle Shoppe casting set or an Italian Made Bess defarbed by an expert.

The current day reproductions are simple copies / interpretations of what the originals were, some good some bad. Its a consumer issue to decide on the purchase of an Indian made musket or a Pedersoli or an American crafted kit.

 

[bud in pa]

How many people here would fire an original flintlock? The barrels were made out of wrought iron not steel as are todays barrels. Also they were Forge welded for their entire length. A while back there was a discussion about the strength of drawn over mandrel, DOM, barrels. With all of the different types of steel in use today you would have to be a metallurgist to know what is safe and what is not. There are also the miniscule amount of times that there are flaws in the bar stock used to make barrels. In this world you put your money down and take your chances! At one time there was a barrel at the Henry Museum in PA that had the weld let go upon proofing.

 

[sgtsquid]

Skimming over these posts it looks like the main defense of indian guns, that I've also heard elsewhere, is "They won't blow up in your face!". With modern materials and manufacturing, making a black powder barrel that can withstand firing pressures is not a great feat. I've done it myself. If you need to harden the frizzen, tune the lock, check the breech to make sure it is threaded all the way...etc, and still deal with poor fit and extra weight of the teak stock, is it really a bargain?

When I start seeing that they are as good as an American, Italian or Japanese gun, then I might take them seriously.

 

[wganz]

17 pages and no resolution, like a dog chasing its tail
our version of Ecclesiastes
much typing and less understanding
each thinking that the more words posted is more intelligence to overwhelm their equally stubborn rival. The other disdaining this torrent of print as a sailor wipes off the ocean spray on the way into home port.
facts are denied and fiction is embraced.
old myths retold as scientific facts and scientific facts spoken of as if heavenly inspired stone writ

see y'all in another thread, I'm out

PS.
BTW. my next post about Indian smooth bores will be a range report.
Until then.

 

[granth]

Back when Russia invaded Afganastan we sent arms to the Mohja ha dine. But they didn’t put those guns right in to service. They took them apart and copied them turning one gun in to several.
Same with captured Russian weapons
These guys were making and useing rifles well back in the flintlock era, again when most of Europe and almost all European armies ignored the technology
These ain’t the dumb camel herders we like to think of them as.
Ask Alexander the Great and every commanding general of an invading army since then.

They do call Afghanistan "the graveyard of empires" !

 

[brushblind]

This thread is like a serial movie, they never conclude anything, you must keep watching the sequels hoping for a proper ending, but it never comes. LOL

 

[tenngun]

Sorry, I just don’t go for the claim that Indian musket makers of today make a musket that is of equal quality to a British ordnance pattern musket. The claim that they’ve been making muskets for 300 years because their ancestors (predecessors) may have worked in an East India Co. Arms factory has no bearing at all on the quality of an Indian made musket today. One has nothing to do with the other.

Americans have been making muskets and rifles in North America since the first blacksmiths and gunsmiths opened up shops in the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries. They made to make their guns to comply with local laws that enforced the Crown’s requirements (if they were a crown colony), it just has nothing to do with the quality of Colerain barrel or Rifle Shoppe casting set or an Italian Made Bess defarbed by an expert.

The current day reproductions are simple copies / interpretations of what the originals were, some good some bad. Its a consumer issue to decide on the purchase of an Indian made musket or a Pedersoli or an American crafted kit.

They are not the quality. No one can make that claim.
However they are safe, they shoot, and until you know the history of the guns they look like the originals
I have a Centermark TFC, it’s short an heavy and on maple.
I have a SMR, it has a German lock and the stock profile is wrong
I have a Lancaster style smooth rifle. No engraving on the brass, too little details on the wood. And the patch box is about ten years late.
Can I live with these? Yes I can
You can get a bess or charley that looks a lot more like the original then a TC Hawken or even a perdersoli trade gun looks like the origanal
And you can hit the range or an event and be having fun. It will shoot as straight as any smoothie, and it will give a lot of fun.
It’s 700vs 1800vs five grand. It’s great if you can afford it, if not , this gets you in the game.
I like the game.

 

[Rock Home Isle]

17 pages and no resolution, like a dog chasing its tail
our version of Ecclesiastes
much typing and less understanding
each thinking that the more words posted is more intelligence to overwhelm their equally stubborn rival. The other disdaining this torrent of print as a sailor wipes off the ocean spray on the way into home port.
facts are denied and fiction is embraced.
old myths retold as scientific facts and scientific facts spoken of as if heavenly inspired stone writ

see y'all in another thread, I'm out

PS.
BTW. my next post about Indian smooth bores will be a range report.
Until then.

Yeah, can’t wait for you to start this ball rolling all over again…

 

[Rock Home Isle]

This thread is like a serial movie, they never conclude anything, you must keep watching the sequels hoping for a proper ending, but it never comes. LOL

It’s like the show, Wagon Train…they never really get anywhere, they just keep Wagon Training…

 

[FlinterNick]

They are not the quality. No one can make that claim.
However they are safe, they shoot, and until you know the history of the guns they look like the originals
I have a Centermark TFC, it’s short an heavy and on maple.
I have a SMR, it has a German lock and the stock profile is wrong
I have a Lancaster style smooth rifle. No engraving on the brass, too little details on the wood. And the patch box is about ten years late.
Can I live with these? Yes I can
You can get a bess or charley that looks a lot more like the original then a TC Hawken or even a perdersoli trade gun looks like the origanal
And you can hit the range or an event and be having fun. It will shoot as straight as any smoothie, and it will give a lot of fun.
It’s 700vs 1800vs five grand. It’s great if you can afford it, if not , this gets you in the game.
I like the game.

I agree tengun Indian Guns are safe to shoot, however I will say I do think the owners need to go the extra step with Indian made guns to ensure they’re appropriately breeched and then vented (for the guns that are not vented).

I’m actually working on one now that looks like it was vented with a dremel graver/cutter and dished out or countersunk with a starter bit, I need to insert a screw (stainless steel screw) and TIG weld the area that was dished out and redrill it., a vent liner will not work because the vent hole is too low to the flat (will not look right over the pan) and will take out too many breech threads than I’m comfortable with.

Most of the time these indian guns are not vented correctly by the user/owner.

 

[tenngun]

I agree tengun Indian Guns are safe to shoot, however I will say I do think the owners need to go the extra step with Indian made guns to ensure they’re appropriately breeched and then vented (for the guns that are not vented).

I’m actually working on one now that looks like it was vented with a dremel graver/cutter and dished out or countersunk with a starter bit, I need to insert a screw (stainless steel screw) and TIG weld the area that was dished out and redrill it., a vent liner will not work because the vent hole is too low to the flat (will not look right over the pan) and will take out too many breech threads than I’m comfortable with.

Most of the time these indian guns are not vented correctly by the user/owner.

Yeah but that’s user error, not the gun.
I changed my tire, didn’t get the lug nuts tight, wheel fell off…. Damn them fords