For anyone considering an Indian manufactured Flintlock

[maillemaker]

I’ve gone back to another thread…and yeah…this seems to be your GOTO argument about India Made Firearms. And instead of reasonable argument, you like to parse words. There are legal reasons as to why these guns are manufactured without flash holes. It’s been explained before to you. You refuse to accept…

I don’t see that you offer much to this thread, other than a straw-man.

Yes, this is my GOTO statement of fact (not argument) about the Indian-made decorations.

Yes, as I have said elsewhere, I completely understand and accept why they are not manufacturing them to be firearms. There is no refusal to accept. I completely accept why they are doing what they are doing.

Nor is this a "straw man". It is a simple fact that the Indian manufacturers are not manufacturing a functional firearm.

Everyone seems to ignore what I'm saying and talk about intent and reasons why and quality etc. etc. etc. All beside the point.

What I offer to this thread, and others where I bring this up, is understanding for people who may not know that they may be buying a item that was not manufactured to be a firearm. It means something to me when someone won't stand behind what they manufacture. I suspect this matters to others also.

If it doesn't matter to you - great! Make an informed choice and enjoy!

 

[Rock Home Isle]

Look at this test of a DOM barrel too! The Author fired and measured it, increasing 50-grns of 3Fg for each shot until he reached 400-grns. There was no measurable change, so he fired a final shot at 400-grns of 3Fg and 2 PRBs.

There will always be nay-sayers ...

Great information…I knew this was out there…so glad you posted it to the thread

 

[Surfinator58]

I think when you say a manufacturer will stand behind their products that's a wide swath I'm sure Jim Kibler would stand behind his workmanship but I doubt if a European manufacturer stand behind theirs in the way you speak of my mom and dad bought a Sealy Posturepedic mattress many years ago and paid the extra money for insurance on it they brought it back unhappy with the condition the salespeople looked over the mattress with a fine tooth comb found one small water spot on the side of the mattress where somebody was drinking water and refuse to pay the guarantee I lived in Florida during Hurricane Andrew and 90% of the insurance companies that insured buildings did not and would not pay or paid substantially less than people insured their homes for but you are right I don't think any of the arms manufacturers in India would give you any help if you were to Triple load a charge and then blow up the end of the barrel

 

[Rudyard]

My own India made India Pattern musket was Got UP' knocked up' You might say from three different rejected & faulted guns but I being used to salvaging relics & wrecks fixed it to possibly pass as some private 'Colonels purchase' as I mostly did F&I . Thusly it served me well many years of my annual season swopping doing events. I kept it in the US & sold it there once I married & could no ;longer do my accustomed seasons & I had others suitable in NZ .I used to go over such Indian guns till they where a positive fire risk..Yes there cheap & Cheerful & yes they do some times need a bit & even a lot of sorting but I never had a failure at Birmingham Proof house . I don't know all the Purveyors of such guns in the US. But Loyalist Arms I did deal with and know them to provide good service . & I have no commercial link with them. Thats my take on such guns .
Rudyard

 

[Surfinator58]

So let me get this straight you used in India made Gun Barrel from another musket built a gun sent it to the Birmingham proof house in London they proved it and approved of its ability to be called a firearm is that correct? Because there are those here who say it could never be a firearm just wondering

 

[FlinterNick]

I’m a naysayer because I think Indian guns are low quality. Has nothing to do with the integrity of the barrels at all.

The issue for me is the locks and stocks. The stocks are junk wood, (most of the time) and the locks are not made well at all.

All spare parts are hand made or retrofitted, resale …. They often sell for less than they are worth.

Added costs to the gun are sunk costs…. They’re money pits.

The cheapest Indian made gun with shipping will return between 600-700 and for a trade or sell, you’ll sell for that amount or less. You can get good quality used reproductions and custom guns for just slightly more, and have an actual asset that can appreciate.

 

[FlinterNick]

So let me get this straight you used in India made Gun Barrel from another musket built a gun sent it to the Birmingham proof house in London they proved it and approved of its ability to be called a firearm is that correct? Because there are those here who say it could never be a firearm just wondering

Great information…I knew this was out there…so glad you posted it to the thread

DOM barrels if done right are fine, but why get a DOM barrel when you can get a seamless barrel cut from solid steel tubing ? And BTW not all Indian gun makers use DOM barrels, the ones from middlesex and Military heritage do. Veteran Arms and Loyalist Arms are sold by competent gunsmiths and distributors that know better…..There are american gun barrel makers that custom make DOM barrels, I believe Greg Christian is one

 

[Grenadier1758]

In this particular case, @Rudyard was the manufacturer or at least the kit assembler. Since he was using it for his own purpose and the gun passed Birmingham proof testing, he was standing behind it based on his experience in building the gun.

We do the same here in the US when we build a kit gun from an assortment of parts, including installing a breech plug and drilling a touch hole. Let's not forget the cutting of dove tails for sights and underlugs. Do you think Investarms is going to take responsibility if you cut a dove tail too deep in the barrel and the barrel borsts due to an overload?

Is Jim Kibler's kit less of a gun because when he ships the kit in two parcels to avoid shipping issues on shipping and taxing complete firearms? Jim will stand behind his product, but probably not if you drill the screw holes too deep when installing a peep sight on the barrel of if you alter the barrel to install a different vent liner and cross thread the installation and blow out the new liner.

I do have two made in India muskets from Loyalist Arms. These were sold by Loyalist with the intent to be functional and safe firearms. I do feel the same unease as @maillemaker about guns sold to be functional firearms without being completed by drilling the touch hole. There the risk goes to the driller of the touch hole.

 

[FlinterNick]

In this particular case, @Rudyard was the manufacturer or at least the kit assembler. Since he was using it for his own purpose and the gun passed Birmingham proof testing, he was standing behind it based on his experience in building the gun.

We do the same here in the US when we build a kit gun from an assortment of parts, including installing a breech plug and drilling a touch hole. Let's not forget the cutting of dove tails for sights and underlugs. Do you think Investarms is going to take responsibility if you cut a dove tail too deep in the barrel and the barrel borsts due to an overload?

Is Jim Kibler's kit less of a gun because when he ships the kit in two parcels to avoid shipping issues on shipping and taxing complete firearms? Jim will stand behind his product, but probably not if you drill the screw holes too deep when installing a peep sight on the barrel of if you alter the barrel to install a different vent liner and cross thread the installation and blow out the new liner.

I do have two made in India muskets from Loyalist Arms. These were sold by Loyalist with the intent to be functional and safe firearms. I do feel the same unease as @maillemaker about guns sold to be functional firearms without being completed by drilling the touch hole. There the risk goes to the driller of the touch hole.

Loyalist puts out a nice product for an Indian made arm.

There are some Indian gun makers that make fine muskets, Henry Krank used to use a dealer that made a really nice 1777 charleville and Brown Bess, they were not on the cheap side because they were made with quality and sold as kits. They used an Asian Walnut (Turkish walnut) that is very much like English Walnut and the barrels were made from hydraulic tubing that BMW used to make its transmissions. Very nice muskets… i haven’t seen these on the market for a long time.

The unvented Indian mad guns should just be sold as kits…. They could charge the same price for the kit and upgrade the wood to a hard maple or even a decent hardwood like mahogany.

 

[Rudyard]

I made a lot of ex' Henry Krank 'guns India made into nice sparking & well hardened & ballanced in every particular Carbines , Blunderbusses all sorts , Lots of them I would get proofed in Birmingham( the only real proof house. London are minor ) ( The two cities are about 90 miles apart by the way ) They where acumilated seconds due to breakage or hard to use ect they came from Longstaffs who owned Henry
Kranks before the current owner bought that side of Mr Longstaffs three shops . It was mostly Surplus stuff the Krank stuff . He dealt in a lot of arms shipments & its thought he fell out with the Israeli govt or visa versa & was put out by his dealings & was murdered on a plane .. What really transpired I know not but his shops got sold & the Krank side expanded greatly I knew the current owner when he ran a garage & did flea markets .
Not to brag but Dixons bought a Blunderbuss I did up thinking it was my work ..much to my surprise If your musket has crowns ect . I did the best ones with ' Crown GR the lower ones got' Dublin Castle' on the rough ones ' Liberty or deth 'on the sideplate some got that . Anyway they were much sought after so I must have been doing something right .
Regards Rudyard

 

[waksupi]

Back when Sharon Rifle Works closed, and it became Montana Rifle Barrel Co., Jerry Cunningham, Lynn Wymer Blue Jacket Sanders, and several others did barrel destructive testing. Aside from determining a barrel could endure horrendous loads, up to 1700 gr. of powder and 17 balls, they could not damage a barrel without separating the balls from the charge, creating a barrel obstruction.
As a further test, they took the cardboard roll from the center of paper towels, put a layer of duct tape around it, and as I recall, set it off with 1400 gr. powder and a golf ball without rupturing the tube.
You old timers probably remember this account in a multiple part series in Buckskin Report many years ago.
It was also published in a pamphlet many years ago, and I could have bought a box full at 50 cents a pop. Interesting reading, and I am sure could have made a good profit from those who weren't around back in those days.

 

[Rudyard]

Back when Sharon Rifle Works closed, and it became Montana Rifle Barrel Co., Jerry Cunningham, Lynn Wymer Blue Jacket Sanders, and several others did barrel destructive testing. Aside from determining a barrel could endure horrendous loads, up to 1700 gr. of powder and 17 balls, they could not damage a barrel without separating the balls from the charge, creating a barrel obstruction.
As a further test, they took the cardboard roll from the center of paper towels, put a layer of duct tape around it, and as I recall, set it off with 1400 gr. powder and a golf ball without rupturing the tube.
You old timers probably remember this account in a multiple part series in Buckskin Report many years ago.
It was also published in a pamphlet many years ago, and I could have bought a box full at 50 cents a pop. Interesting reading, and I am sure could have made a good profit from those who weren't around back in those days.

I was around then & got to know Harr[son Rimer & Jerry Cunningham Jerry was a gem of whit we had fun at dusty Friendships shoots I bought a LOT of barrels & he gave me culls some marked ' junk ' So naturally I made them into matchlocks & early Flint or English lock carbines ect .One became. one I graved on the underside ' Finest selected Montana barrel company 5$ Reject ' & a pair of taper Oct 50 cal barrels made two pistol barrels & a matchlock' Petronel' the other a Scots Snaphance . The one marked Junk had a 1 in 16" pitch I hunted Goats with it but meant to bore it & rifle it but havnt to date . the stock nice hard maple ex Vern ? it had a shake & so short he blew it out but I got round that & the lock was a plate sans inards ex Jim Chambers He gave me for singing"" :Oh don't sell our Egar no more Violin's "" or maybe my famous' Juggling'act . I made it all ' English lock' internals adding the vestigial' Dog' to the cock . Nice cheek stock piece from one up for sale in the booth next door I fancied so Harrison held it up & I got a photo & drew round the outlines with detailes added on a bit of card Nothing Kibler about it I had fun but its a long grind in the dust & heat . or can be I was a 'booth hopper ' had fun but bought a lot of stuff & just posted it from the village none of todays paranoya re posting .. I only did one Western NMLRA R' vous on the Flathead I got from Spokane via Burlington Northern high line to Whitefish ' excellent service even if I did have explain my reasons to a Marshall & two Bulls as we slowed into the yards . I was no stranger to looking down gun barrels & the Marshall was very calm & polite . I met such fellows now & then but it was never a vulgar "freeze succer" just a calm & polite conversation . A regular Bo I met in the Spokane yards got gathered up, same story but he whittled about missing his ride. The Marshall says'' Hop back on" & he did . Curly G took me back to Ohio in his 'War Waggon '.With a bunch of the' Tommahawks' My I had far too much fun them days now ime old & stuffed Oh well never regretted it any .
Regards a rather rambling Rudyard

 

[AZbpBurner]

Yes, Military Heritage , Middlesex Village, Veteran Arms, etc. all have guarantees. I've dealt with Veteran Arms and the owner is very nice to deal with. Anyone new to these products needs to do a bit of studying; Best success to all, says I!is website,

Beware of Middlesex, since, although there's a wealth of info on his website he just is incapable of properly fixing lock defects, and his turnaround time is SLOW. He doesn't commnicate well, and a soft sear that bent, he returned as "fixed", but it was obvious he did nothing to it. I finally hardened it with casenite, myself, so it works now.
Loyalist was everything Middlesex wasn't and was really responsive to a couple of problems, including a missing screw.
Always regard these firearms as kits, since disassembly and wood finishing is beneficial.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

IIRC this report (2008) was because of an India origin Bess having a barrel failure, causing minor injuries. It was heavily investigated, and it was user error..., actually several tiny errors that combined, and thus the failure.

LD

 

[FlinterNick]

Beware of Middlesex, since, although there's a wealth of info on his website he just is incapable of properly fixing lock defects, and his turnaround time is SLOW. He doesn't commnicate well, and a soft sear that bent, he returned as "fixed", but it was obvious he did nothing to it. I finally hardened it with casenite, myself, so it works now.
Loyalist was everything Middlesex wasn't and was really responsive to a couple of problems, including a missing screw.
Always regard these firearms as kits, since disassembly and wood finishing is beneficial.

I know a few folks that have been burned by middlesex. He takes order’s for guns he doesn’t have in stock and then will only refund you 50% of what you paid. Meanwhile after holding your money for 12-18 months, there’s not consideration of the fact that your payment is a loan to middlesex to purchase a gun.

Middlsex’s (Pete) business practices are nothing short of criminal.

As for parts and repairs, what ever you’d end back to middlesex you may never see again. Indian arms have no drop in replacement parts, the broken part needs to be TIG/MIG/ARC welded, or brazed and or custom made or copied in a lost wax mold. This is one of the biggest lagging issues with indian made guns.

Cheap guns are expensive to own.

 

[wganz]

HOLY WALLS OF TEXT!!! Most are cut&paste from one thread to another & to yet another.

To answer the OP directly, I am considering buying an Indian made flintlock from Loyalist Arms out of Canada due to their reputation of quality work converting the Indian imports.

Not going to disparage the other shops but recommend doing research to see reported issues that posters have backed up with pictures.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

HOLY WALLS OF TEXT!!! Most are cut&paste from one thread to another & to yet another.

To answer the OP directly, I am considering buying an Indian made flintlock from Loyalist Arms out of Canada due to their reputation of quality work converting the Indian imports.

Not going to disparage the other shops but recommend doing research to see reported issues that posters have backed up with pictures.

I've owned 5 from Loyalist Arms, and still own 4 of them. I even live fire them and hunt with them.

LD

 

[Kentuckyjed]

I have looked into the India made guns on all the listed companies that were selling them. The ones that I was interested in were nice looking and I understand about the legalities of the touch hole appliques. But I swayed away from purchasing one and instead added about $200 more to my expense and bought a nice set up that I built from parts from Pecatonica River Longrifles. I had to build it myself and there was a learning curve but what better way to understand and appreciate the weapon/tool when you know what is behind every part on it. Not that I will not ever buy an India made gun but if I do it will be one that I cannot find parts to build my own. I do like the Early 1700's Grenadier Hand Mortar that Veteran arms has though.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
The important part of that report is the admonition to reenators to clean the firearms, particularly since no projectile or patch is used that scours the fowling during use. I work over reenactor guns frequently and the level of care is appalling. To some, the gun is a prop and nothing more. I was at the Battle of Bennington this year and saw musket stocks almost gray with weather damage because the finish was gone, locks and barrels corroded to the point the markings were illegible. Locks with frizzens so loose and feather springs so wimpy they fired only once in 5 or 6 tries. In the 18th century, those soldiers would have been flogged and their officers fined or demoted. I've encountered that solid gray stuff that was found in the exploded barrel and it may be due to using water to clean (which is fine) but doing the job poorly and incompletely such that residue is left in the barrel and it accretes because of the water. I've chipped that manure out of barrels and every one of those barrels was from a gun in which the owner never removed the barrel for cleaning. Many, perhaps most, reenactor don't seem to know much technically about their firelocks. After I work over their locks, they are amazed at how well they work. All I've done is bring the locks up to the standards they originally were and the reenactors are amazed because they never shot flintlocks in that condition before. They have no idea how well they should be working.

dave

 

[Grenadier1758]

It is amazing what poor condition the muskets of some reenactors are kept. I was the bane of some of the members of my unit when I had the inspection responsibility of our muskets before we went to the field. Wood would be wiped down and the lock and flint were in reasonable shape. But getting a ping when the small end of the steel rammer was dropped down the bore wasn't good enough to pass my inspection. I would drop the large end down the bore to get the ping and I reminded them that the musket that blew up had probably passed the ping test with the small end of the rammer. Simply because we are shooting blanks today did not mean that the musket did not need thorough bore cleaning. Things did get better, and we started getting reasonable reliability in our firing.

That is one advantage of doing the live fire at woods walks and other live fire competitions. We have to keep our muskets fully cleaned and ready to fire.