For anyone considering an Indian manufactured Flintlock

[Coinneach]

Look at this test of a DOM barrel too! The Author fired and measured it, increasing 50-grns of 3Fg for each shot until he reached 400-grns. There was no measurable change, so he fired a final shot at 400-grns of 3Fg and 2 PRBs.

There will always be nay-sayers ...

Indian ML's arent Barrel proofed, but are exported without vent holes drilled, what does that tell you ?

Here in Australia we dont accept Indian made ML's on firing ranges unless they've been Barrel proofed by the SSAA or other creditable Shooting associations, in addition to the internal Lock parts passing inspection.

 

[Coinneach]

Not all India made guns are made by the same company. Thus different quality is likely.

Never the less no Indian company exporting ML's will provide any guarantees or assurances about their products, USE AT YOUR OWN RISK.

 

[Coinneach]

Not all India made guns are made by the same company. Thus different quality is likely.

But how does one differentiate between one or the other ?

 

[Coinneach]

Hey, thanks. In reading the information posted by Military History, the company that offers many types of India made firearms, they're very specific about frizzen hardening, etc. I believe the White Co. went out of business, (?) but they were/are very highly regarded. Anti-India-made snobishness is common, but I would not hesitate to use one. You're more likely to be harmed crossing the highway or driving in a big city! I've got an older (Bi-Cen era?) Bess from India that is stout as an oak. Glad you posted, Surfinator!

Well I've witnessed more failures in Indian made ML's than most would believe.

 

[Coinneach]

So what you’re saying is that they are not manufactured to be firearms…even though they are intended to be every bit of a functional firearm?

Hmm…Do you work for CNN?

Do the terms Wall hangers and reenactor blank firing ML's mean anything to you ?

 

[sussexmuzllodr]

I trust Indian made Firearms like I trust the Guy in the White House.

 

[GREENSWLDE]

So let me get this straight you used in India made Gun Barrel from another musket built a gun sent it to the Birmingham proof house in London they proved it and approved of its ability to be called a firearm is that correct? Because there are those here who say it could never be a firearm just wondering

Sorry your Geography is in ERROR. BRUM Proof House is in BIRMINGHAM --About 100 miles NorthN-West of London and is a completely different set up.If BRUM passed it IT WAS OK. They were known at the time known to be quite severe.. 1970/80 period. Quite sure they are still as honest.. I've had numbers of Dam and Iron barrels thru' there with no trouble. (Or London for that matter..)
Some years ago when there was doubt about Damascus barrels being suitable for Nitro,a Late friend P.. and the then Proof master R.. tried to burst a 12b unmentionable. They ended with 2X Nitro proof load and 2X RB rammed on top. At the point of impact,the detination, the Dam tube had not burst as such but had started to Unwind releasing the pressure with little surrounding damage. As Both Party's are now deseased I feel that all records,being Un-official,are now lost, although there were several party's shown the results at the time..QED..

 

[waksupi]

I was around then & got to know Harr[son Rimer & Jerry Cunningham Jerry was a gem of whit we had fun at dusty Friendships shoots I bought a LOT of barrels & he gave me culls some marked ' junk ' So naturally I made them into matchlocks & early Flint or English lock carbines ect .One became. one I graved on the underside ' Finest selected Montana barrel company 5$ Reject ' & a pair of taper Oct 50 cal barrels made two pistol barrels & a matchlock' Petronel' the other a Scots Snaphance . The one marked Junk had a 1 in 16" pitch I hunted Goats with it but meant to bore it & rifle it but havnt to date . the stock nice hard maple ex Vern ? it had a shake & so short he blew it out but I got round that & the lock was a plate sans inards ex Jim Chambers He gave me for singing"" :Oh don't sell our Egar no more Violin's "" or maybe my famous' Juggling'act . I made it all ' English lock' internals adding the vestigial' Dog' to the cock . Nice cheek stock piece from one up for sale in the booth next door I fancied so Harrison held it up & I got a photo & drew round the outlines with detailes added on a bit of card Nothing Kibler about it I had fun but its a long grind in the dust & heat . or can be I was a 'booth hopper ' had fun but bought a lot of stuff & just posted it from the village none of todays paranoya re posting .. I only did one Western NMLRA R' vous on the Flathead I got from Spokane via Burlington Northern high line to Whitefish ' excellent service even if I did have explain my reasons to a Marshall & two Bulls as we slowed into the yards . I was no stranger to looking down gun barrels & the Marshall was very calm & polite . I met such fellows now & then but it was never a vulgar "freeze succer" just a calm & polite conversation . A regular Bo I met in the Spokane yards gebeerot gathered up, same story but he whittled about missing his ride. The Marshall says'' Hop back on" & he did . Curly G took me back to Ohio in his 'War Waggon '.With a bunch of the' Tommahawks' My I had far too much fun them days now ime old & stuffed Oh well never regretted it any .
Regards a rather rambling Rudyard

I remember Boot and Brother, the Tomahawks traveling with Curly. Fun guys, for sure.

 

[GREENSWLDE]

But how does one differentiate between one or the other ?

By taking them down to the bottom of the yard,tying 'em to a fence post and firing a couple of treble loads thru' 'em with a LONG piece of string..Called survival tractics or common sence. O.D.

 

[Garbear34]

Thanks for the post. I had been looking at them as an option.

 

[brazosland]

Which of these companies makes a brass barreled pistol that’s worth owning?

 

[Billy Boy]

Look at this test of a DOM barrel too! The Author fired and measured it, increasing 50-grns of 3Fg for each shot until he reached 400-grns. There was no measurable change, so he fired a final shot at 400-grns of 3Fg and 2 PRBs.

There will always be nay-sayers ...

Proofed mine with 200gr 2f, 2 oz of shot, three times, no change in OD, no loose spots ID.; underhammer design, 3/4 inch, grade 5 bolt for breach plug, threaded half inch into barrel. Its’ been serving me well for several years, one of my favorites.

 

[Doc]

In purchasing an Indian made gun you take your chances. Some are good, some are OK and many are bad. There’s absolutely no return or liability protection because they are sold as not meant to be shot. It’s completely buyers beware.
Doc,

 

[webb116054]

Hey, thanks. In reading the information posted by Military History, the company that offers many types of India made firearms, they're very specific about frizzen hardening, etc. I believe the White Co. went out of business, (?) but they were/are very highly regarded. Anti-India-made snobishness is common, but I would not hesitate to use one. You're more likely to be harmed crossing the highway or driving in a big city! I've got an older (Bi-Cen era?) Bess from India that is stout as an oak. Glad you posted, Surfinator!

I purchased a French Fusil De Chase in 62 caliber/20 gauge , made in India and I had to drill the vent hole and harden the frizzen ! I also sanded down the stock to get it to the correct size! I shot the dickens out of that smoothbore and killed a mess of squirrels with it ! The gun shot very well and as a gunsmith, I can testify that these guns are just as strong as any other flintlocks on the market ! The locks do need a little fine tuning but they are fast and produce very good, hot sparks! I am working on purchasing a Chiefs trade gun in 62 caliber because it is a little lighter and faster handling than the Fusil De Chase !

 

[springfield art]

I’ve gone back to another thread…and yeah…this seems to be your GOTO argument about India Made Firearms. And instead of reasonable argument, you like to parse words. There are legal reasons as to why these guns are manufactured without flash holes. It’s been explained before to you. You refuse to accept…

I don’t see that you offer much to this thread, other than a straw-man.

Yeah, it's clever to overcome 'regulations'; leave the touchhole undrilled, and avoid lots of 'legal' issues; it's a cool way around onerous "firearm" laws. All to our advantage. You just have to be careful not to screw up the drilling!

 

[springfield art]

In purchasing an Indian made gun you take your chances. Some are good, some are OK and many are bad. There’s absolutely no return or liability protection because they are sold as not meant to be shot. It’s completely buyers beware.
Doc,

Well, I'd talk to Veteran Arms, Middlesex, Military Heritage and see what they have to say about "not meant to be shot"; they're not decorative over-the-bar wallhangers. Whatever floats a fella's boat, though. Don't like 'em? Don't buy 'em.

 

[Surfinator58]

I like that survey that someone did a couple of months ago it found half of the members owned India guns and enjoyed shooting them and the other half didn't own had no experience and would not think of owning one and we're never going to change those people which is fine shoot what you enjoy shooting do what you enjoy doing that's why we still have Choice here in America maybe not for much longer though

 

[FlinterNick]

Well, I'd talk to Veteran Arms, Middlesex, Military Heritage and see what they have to say about "not meant to be shot"; they're not decorative over-the-bar wallhangers. Whatever floats a fella's boat, though. Don't like 'em? Don't buy 'em.

Middlesex trading reviews buy at your own risk is right …. Bbb reviews dont lie. As I’ve said before I have no problem with people buying Indian Muskets And if you do I highly recommend loyalist arms and secondary choice veteran arms.

https://www.bbb.org/us/nh/charlesto...age-trading-co-0051-92037462/customer-reviews

 

[FlinterNick]

Hi,
The important part of that report is the admonition to reenators to clean the firearms, particularly since no projectile or patch is used that scours the fowling during use. I work over reenactor guns frequently and the level of care is appalling. To some, the gun is a prop and nothing more. I was at the Battle of Bennington this year and saw musket stocks almost gray with weather damage because the finish was gone, locks and barrels corroded to the point the markings were illegible. Locks with frizzens so loose and feather springs so wimpy they fired only once in 5 or 6 tries. In the 18th century, those soldiers would have been flogged and their officers fined or demoted. I've encountered that solid gray stuff that was found in the exploded barrel and it may be due to using water to clean (which is fine) but doing the job poorly and incompletely such that residue is left in the barrel and it accretes because of the water. I've chipped that manure out of barrels and every one of those barrels was from a gun in which the owner never removed the barrel for cleaning. Many, perhaps most, reenactor don't seem to know much technically about their firelocks. After I work over their locks, they are amazed at how well they work. All I've done is bring the locks up to the standards they originally were and the reenactors are amazed because they never shot flintlocks in that condition before. They have no idea how well they should be working.

dave

Not cleaning the gun regularly and also consistently loading 150 grains of 3F contributed to blowing up that barrel. The user had a fondness for large muzzle blasts.

 

[FlinterNick]

In this particular case, @Rudyard was the manufacturer or at least the kit assembler. Since he was using it for his own purpose and the gun passed Birmingham proof testing, he was standing behind it based on his experience in building the gun.

We do the same here in the US when we build a kit gun from an assortment of parts, including installing a breech plug and drilling a touch hole. Let's not forget the cutting of dove tails for sights and underlugs. Do you think Investarms is going to take responsibility if you cut a dove tail too deep in the barrel and the barrel borsts due to an overload?

Is Jim Kibler's kit less of a gun because when he ships the kit in two parcels to avoid shipping issues on shipping and taxing complete firearms? Jim will stand behind his product, but probably not if you drill the screw holes too deep when installing a peep sight on the barrel of if you alter the barrel to install a different vent liner and cross thread the installation and blow out the new liner.

I do have two made in India muskets from Loyalist Arms. These were sold by Loyalist with the intent to be functional and safe firearms. I do feel the same unease as @maillemaker about guns sold to be functional firearms without being completed by drilling the touch hole. There the risk goes to the driller of the touch hole.

Agree grendadier, something sold as a non-functional firearm to me is skeptical. But I also consider the integrity of the dealer… which is why i never recommend middlesex. I had one of his muskets i looked at for a friend, and had to hand it back becuase the stock was just in terrible shape and the cost to restock was just too much. The barrel channel had some kind of white paste in it like a plaster and the lock had a super strong frizzen spring and a very weak mainspring. I had reached out to the guy a few times for spare parts was told he had a spring, never herd back. Then tried to exchange the gun for a different one, and was told there was a restocking fee. It was decided to keep the musket, which was eventually sold for far less than it was purchased, the entire debacle was a nightmare. In all the years I had dealt with Navy Arms, and Dixie Gun works, they never turned away a return or exchange and always had parts whether they needed to be fit or could be dropped in.