Gaps Around Parts--how to avoid?

[Cosmoline]

I'm putting together a Sitting Fox smooth rifle kit. This is my first build and so far everything is coming together OK. It should be up and running soon. What's concerning to me is no matter how careful I am in measuring and how small a chisel I use, I seem to be taking away more wood than I should be. So there's this thin gap appearing around all the parts. Functionally I suppose it doesn't matter, but it looks cruddy.

I'm using inletting black to carefully ensure that no wood gets removed unless it needs to be removed. Yet in the end I get a gap that's about 1/8th of an inch around the parts. I can't figure out why this is happening, but I suspect it has to do with how I'm using the chisel. Any thoughts?

 

[rabjr]

My first thought is you didn't file a draft on any of the edges of your parts before inletting them. Do you have any kind of a building book to refer to?

 

[ehoff]

My first question is the same as Swampys are you filing a draft on the parts prior to inletting them? Are you trying to use the chisel to out line the parts? Any photos?

 

[crockett]

Okay, at the risk of being called all thumbs I'll state the unspeakable....inlet black isn't all that great.

Why I say this is because the black is no better than how carefully you put the metal part into the wood. If you move the part around the black gets every where- not that much help.

I have inlet parts so tight that I later couldn't get them out and I am afraid to pull too hard for fear I may chip out some of the surrounding wood, so some parts are in the stock for good- like a belt hook I have on a pistol.

If you have a 1/8" gap- that is way too much. Everyone works their own way but I try to clamp the metal part tight against the wood and then use a very sharp knife (pocket or exacto) to scribe a line. I then chisel exactly at that line and so far that works pretty good.

On a lock plate you have a bolster that prevents being able to accurately lay it in position so you make a duplicate- a thin piece of sheet metal cut to the exact lines as the lock plate and then use that to scribe your line. In short, if you want to do a first class job a lot of times you must make jigs or templates, etc to do precise work. This sounds like more work but that's seldom true, in the long run you actually save time.

How do you fix that wide a gap? I have no idea. Maybe glue in a thin sliver of wood?

It is also common the slightly bevel some parts so that the bottom is smaller than the top. This sounds okay but that's how you get such a tight fit that a part can get stuck. I'm a so-so builder of average skills. My only asset is being willing to take plenty of time and make jigs and templates to get the job done right. I admire those that just blaze away and do fast work. Fortunately some of those folks are on this site, they're artisans and will hopefully give you expert help.

 

[Cosmoline]

I think you have put your finger on it. There's a certain amount of slop in the black as I press the part into place. Slop on one end means extra space on the other, and so it goes as I make room on each side.
Next time I'll be doing it with templates. In the mean time all is not lost. This was to be a rough-and-tuble barn style piece anyway and I can easily shim the gaps with some brass so it fits tight. Live and learn.

 

[Stophel]

Definitely bevel your edges (draft). I use the exacto knife to scribe the outline. I then use the knife to go over the line. I don't chisel down much, but you have to be VERY careful with the knife, it is easy to get it to run out of the line.

For the exacto blade, I will break the very tip off (purposely or accidentally....), and resharpen it. The tip is too thin as it is. I also take it to a stone and round the back of the knife blade, knocking off the sharp square corners. This helps a lot in turning the knife and keeping it from breaking off the tip.

This makes for a tight inlet that I will have to scrape out some as the part goes in.

 

[oldarmy]

inletting black sucks..IMHO :v
dump it and use red lipstick.. :thumbsup:
Get it from your wife or girlfriend :grin:
Go slow.. bevel the edges.. use SHARP tools.
Builders are their own worse critics..
What you see as a MAJOR Error will not even be noticed by most..
they will just be overwhelmed by the overall beauty of a traditional flintlock

 

[Capt. Jas.]

Concentrate on the transfer color on the bottom and not as much on the sides once you start going down. You will always have black on the sides each time you place the part in.

 

[Stophel]

Inlet black is the nastiest substance known to man.

I use burnt umber pigment with some paint thinner made into a sort of thin paste. Doesn't soak into the wood, and the paint thinner just dries and evaporates away, leaving just dry, powdered pigment, which is easily wiped off of the metal parts and your hands. :wink:

 

[hotsparks]

As Crocket said, use a very sharp knife (xacto works great) to outline the part, a pencil line is waaaayyy too wide. I use an outlining chisel to make my initial outline stops, this is a chisel with about a 3/16" wide oval tip...sharpened both sides at equal angles. The outline chisel will make very tight radiui, like the lock front.The outline chisel gets tedious on long lines, moving about 1/8" at a time, so I resort to a regular chisel. Here's something I picked up years back making freehand dovetails in furniture, when using a chisel to outline, defy logic and turn the chisel around...that is, while it may seem best to carefully place the chisel with the flat side pointed "out", exactly on the line, or even a smudge inside of it...when you tap the chisel with your mallet, it actually moves out, or toward the line because of the "lever" of the bevel on the inside, or top, of the chisel. By reversing the chisel, it moves to the "safe" inside of the cut. I always chisel in "stops", about 1/2 to 3/4" across an area, like a lock, to be chiseled out and work that one little area, then move the "stop" and do it again, never taking much more than 1/8" or so out at a time...saves surprises when working with 'confused' grain like Maple. Make that first 1/8" depth cut, then try the part, you may find that it's too tight at that point, but don't worry with it now...make another outlining stop cut, this time you can turn the chisel around with the flat toward the outside edge...take out another 1/8" (or whatever is appropriate) then start trying to fit the part. I don't use "blacking" to do this, just "eyeball" the fit, the "hole" can be widened by using a shearing cut with the chisel, straight down. With some practice, and a sharp chisel of appropriate size, you'll be amazed that you can take a 1/64" or so sliver at a time.....always remember, you can always widen an inlet area if the part is too tight, or won't fit, but it's hard (but not impossible) to put it back, guess you know that...
John

 

[Jaeger]

The wisdom in all these good suggestions is AWESOME! I'm serious! :thumbsup:

 

[Zonie]

Inletting black? I love it.
There is no way on earth that my wife can ever say I've been messing with HER stuff like she could if I used lipstick. :grin:

Getting back to the task of inletting stuff without having any gap at all around it filing a taper on the edges of the part helps but it isn't totally necessary.

The First rule is NEVER use a chisel to try to cut the outline of a part into the wood.
A chisel is much too large and clumsy to do the precise cutting that is needed.

What IS necessary is to clamp the part firmly to the stock and to then use a pointed Exacto Knife (or similar knife with replaceable blades).

Holding the pointed knife so that it will be almost perpendicular to the part but will just slightly undercut it push the point into the wood.
Use the edge of the part as a guide keeping the knife against it at all times and cut down into the wood until you've gone around the part once.

Then repeat this several times.
After the point is at least 1/32 of an inch and even better 1/16 of an inch into the wood then remove the part.
With a lock or something with a thick body like a trigger plate you can keep cutting the groove deeper down to 3/32 of an inch before removing the part.

I like to tilt the knife at about 45 degrees to the surface and cut the wood INSIDE the cut down to meet the bottom of the cut. This will remove a little of the un-needed wood and allow me to use the chisel to remove the extra wood on the bottom without getting too close to the critical outline of the part.

Use the inletting black to see where wood has to come off of the bottom of the pocket. DO NOT remove ANY of the wood from the outline cut. That means ignoring any and all of the black that might wipe off of the part onto the sides of the pocket. You have to use some common sense here.

While checking to see if more wood has to come off of the bottom of the pocket the part may start to "hang up" on the edges. If this happens use the knife to retrace the outline of the part holding it as you did when you first started to scribe or cut the outline. It should be almost perpendicular to the part.

After going around the outside of the part once or twice it should fit down easily into the pocket and the black will tell you where the wood is that is stopping it. Remove ONLY that black (or red :grin wood.

When you finish you should not be able to get a human hair in the gap between the part and the wood.

So close is this fit that when you apply the finishing oils to the finished gun the pocket the woods slight expansion from the oils will shrink the pocket so that the part will no longer fit.

When this happens, some careful scraping will enlarge the pocket enough to make removing the part fairly easy.

 

[necchi]

Inlet black is the nastiest substance known to man.

I have to agree with that! I can't seem to put that stuff on light enough to not have smears all over everything!
I just use a common wick style oil lamp with that parafin based lamp oil. turn the wick high, hold the piece over the smoke,,turn the wick down till next pass, I keep a damp cloth handy to wipe/refreash the item occasionaly. Works for me. But I'm still a rookie,,it takes HOURS!,,for just one little item.

 

[DTCoffin]

Lots of good ideas here and I'll be trying some on my next gun.I'm not sure if it was mentioned earlier, but one thing to try till you get better is to cut inside the line,then slowly work your way out,trying the part as you go.I have never used inletting black,one of those things i forgot to get when accruing parts,i just use a beeswax candle with a long wick.

 

[Vaino]

I'd really be lost if the Exacto knives and blades weren't available. The blades are resharpened many times and when they've had enough, they're used for small scrapers. I use light coats of Permatex for "spotting", especially for evening out the bottom of inlets. Always file draft on inlays and on some inlays that are curved {cheek piece stars, etc.}, it's somtimes difficult to ascertain the direction of the draft. If only a slight amount of draft is used, there's very little wood to be removed after the inlay is outlined w/ an Exacto knife. Many years ago I served a 5 yr. tool and diemaker apprenticeship and didn't realize 'til much later that one of the main things taught was patience which is also necessary for a neat LR build.....Fred

 

[ssettle]

Good info all around. With the worse case scenario you can correct the big mistakes with barrel bedding epoxy From Brownell. Its a good idea to use it after you have the gun parts inlet and are really to final sand it and stain. you can die the epoxy to the color you like with the die that comes with the kit. Use it to fill the large gaps. I know some guy won't have any thing to do with the stuff but I like it to add strength to the tang area of the stock. Basically the weakest area of the stock. One very important part of the kit is the release agent and following the instructions to the letter. If done right it will be very hard to see where it was used. Good luck with you build. SS :thumbsup:

 

[Stophel]

Oh, cosmoline, are you just exaggerating when you say you have a 1/8" gap, or do you really have an eighth inch gap? If it's just a little gap, try this: put in the part and wet the wood around it. Soak it good. It will swell up a little bit. Dry it with a heat gun. It will hold the swelled position a little. See if this closes up the gap. If it helps a little, good, and you may be able to close the gap up completely when you finish the stock (particularly if you use a linseed oil type of finish). You will be amazed at how much the wood will swell in the inlets when you finish the stock. I usually have to scrape all the inlets out quite a bit to get the parts to fit again after finishing.

Worth a try, but you can't count on it.

 

[oldarmy]

"I'd really be lost if the Exacto knives and blades weren't available."
I thought I was the only one that used them :grin:
Don't know how you can do fine inletting without those fine razor blades..
Again,
It's hard to see how bad your inletting problems are without pics..
Like the last post.. You can fill in allot of gaps with slivers of wood and glue.

 

[rich pierce]

Another sure way to get a big gap is to use chisels with fat angles to the bevels and drive them in deep. They compress the wood as they go in and even though you start on or inside the line, the cut created now extends out and in farther than you want. I reshape original chisel bevels when I don't use my own home-made chisels to have very narrow angled bevels.

 

[Mike Brooks]

This may shake all of you up. I don't have an exacto knife on the place. :shocked2: Never used them. I also use inletting black....SPARINGLY! I use one bottle of Jarrows about every 100 guns. The way you lay in and pull out your parts can really give you alot of false impressions with inletting black. You can't be all thumbs and use this stuff.