How does a Bowie differ from other large knives?

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Blackpowder Billy said:
Good question, the Bowie Knife was never a single design, but a line up that was improved over time.From my reading one of earliest bowies designed by Jim's brother Rezin and built by Jesses Clifft, resembled a "butcher knife," it was straight backed and 1/4" thick and 9 1/2" long blade. However today the "Bowie" commonly is a "clipped" blade similar to the Ka-Bar fighting knife. But keep in mind any knife larger than a pen knife has been called a "Bowie." :)


OK, but where does the coffin handle come into the picture? Some claim this is the "real" original Bowie knife.
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Not if you've seen one of Noah Smithwick's direct copies of the knife Jim Bowie was wearing in Texas in the early 1830's. His description has been in print since 1899 and his copies of the knife since 1834.
 
Wes/Tex said:
Not if you've seen one of Noah Smithwick's direct copies of the knife Jim Bowie was wearing in Texas in the early 1830's. His description has been in print since 1899 and his copies of the knife since 1834.

Gee wiz :( that sure is a boringly sensible reply. Ye don't think maybe I was :stir: ?
 
Actually Rezin Bowie was PROBABLY the "designer of" the original Bowie knives and based on the knives at HAM that are known to be his designs, the designs varied (were improved) over time.

ONE of Rezin's knives (which is in the collection at HAM) has a 8.5" blade with a straight clip and a "coffin handle" made of bone. The guard is made of plain iron. The sheath is made of wood and covered with saddle leather.

Frankly, I'm still "in the camp of" a Bowie is today ANY large fighting knife, what's NOT a dagger, a short sword or a dirk.

Note: Jim Bowie had at least 2 sheath (Bowie's) knives in TX & Southwick copied at least ONE of the two. Further, several New Orleans knife-makers made numerous copies of The Sandbar Fight weapon.

just my opinion, satx
 
OK Rifleman, I am not sure, but going back to my "knowledgeable sources" it was incorporated in the original Bowies. But as to that being "the" Bowie, well I know it has been dated to 1830 and is apparently a drop point Bowie. However Jim( he and I were good friends :rotf: :haha: ) carried James Black's knife to the Alamo which was huge at 12" long 2" 1/4" thick and a curved up tip with a false edge.Like I said 'afore' Bowie like many of us had and carried a slew of "BOWIEs." :hatsoff:
 
I think Bowie knives were not just the design but the time period and use. Bowie knives were designed and carried for protection as a sure backup weapon prior to the cartridge era. A large butcher knife type design meant to be carried on the body for protection in 1840 is probably more a Bowie knife than a clip point double guard Bowie Hunter from1890. In this case time period and intended use help define the breed. For an actual example of using one as a backup read this:

Most significant of all Gold Rush shootouts was the Rocky Canyon fight. Just as the California Gold Rush saw civilian violence in degrees never experienced before or since in peacetime America, it also saw one of the greatest of all pistol and Bowie knife fights. On a lonely mountain trail in the Sierra Nevada in 1854, Captain Jonathan R. Davis, after his mining partners were shot down by marauding bandits, single-handedly killed eleven outlaws with pistols and Bowie knife in possibly the single most extraordinary feat of self-defense by an American civilian in the annals of frontier history.

Jonathan R. Davis was born on August 5, 1816, to a prosperous family in Monticello, South Carolina. He was educated at the University of South Carolina, and in December 1846, he enlisted in the Palmetto Regiment of Volunteers for service in the Mexican War. Soon promoted to second lieutenant, he served with great distinction, fighting in many battles; he was wounded in action at Churubusco. Mustered out of the army in 1848, Davis carried the honorary title of captain and later joined the Gold Rush. In California Davis stood out among many veteran fighting men in the diggings. He was known as an expert pistol shot, and according to a friend he was "second to none in the state as a fencer."

On December 19, 1854, Captain Davis and two fellow prospectors, James C. McDonald of Alabama, and Dr. Bolivar A. Sparks of Mississippi, were walking down a miner's trail in Rocky Canyon in El Dorado County, on the North Fork of the American River. McDonald and Sparks were armed with pistols; Captain Davis carried two Colt revolvers and a large Bowie knife.

Unknown to Davis and his companions, a band of robbers was lying in wait in the canyon brush near the trail. They were a typically diverse and motley group of Gold Rush bandits: two Americans, one Frenchman, two Britons, five Sydney Ducks, and four Mexicans. The band had robbed and murdered six Chinese two days before, and had robbed and killed four Americans the previous day. Two of the gang -were -wounded in these encounters. As Captain Davis and his companions trudged on foot past the place of ambush, the bandit gang charged out of the brush, pistols flaming. James McDonald died instantly, -without time to draw his revolver or react in any way. Dr. Bolivar managed to get his six-shooter out and fire twice at the highwaymen before he dropped, badly wounded.

Captain Davis later described himself as being "in a fever of excitement at the time." Unfazed, he stood his ground, pulling both pistols and firing a barrage at the charging outlaws. Davis's shooting skills stood him in good stead. One after another he shot down his assailants. The outlaw bullets tore at Davis's clothing but caused only two slight flesh wounds. Within moments seven of the bandits were dead or dying on the ground and Davis's pistols were empty. Four of the remaining robbers, three armed -with Bowie knives and one with a short sword, now closed in on the Captain to finish him off. Davis whipped out his Bowie knife, and quickly warded off the thrusts from the two most aggressive bandits. He stabbed one of them to death; the other he disarmed by knocking the knife from his grasp and slicing off his nose and a finger of his right hand.

The two last attackers were the men who had been wounded in the pre-vious bandit raids. Despite their weakened condition, they foolishly approached Davis with drawn knives. As the captain explained later, he did not know that they were wounded: "Two of the four that made the charge upon me were unable to fight on account of their old wounds. They came up with the rest, making warlike demonstrations by raising their knives in a striking posture, and I acted accordingly. I noticed that they handled them with very bad grace, but attributed it altogether to fright or natural awkwardness." The captain reacted in an instant. Slashing with his heavy Bowie, he killed them both.

Seven of the robbers were dead, three desperately wounded, and the eleventh, the now noseless bandit, did not appear to be fatally injured. The three remaining outlaws fled. Ignoring his own wounds, Captain Davis removed his shirt, tore it to strips, and began bandaging Dr. Sparks and the wounded brigands. Suddenly Davis spotted three well-armed strangers coming up the trail. He sprang to the body of James McDonald, grabbed his revolver from its holster, and yelled, "Halt!"

To Davis's relief, the three turned out to be John Webster, Isaac A. Hart, and P.S. Robertson, members of a mining party camped a mile distant on a creek running into the North Fork of the American River. They were out hunting game and had seen the entire fight from a nearby hilltop. With Captain Davis they returned to their camp and every miner there, eighteen in all, quickly gathered at the scene of the fight. By nightfall the three badly wounded bandits had died. Their bodies were searched and relieved of $491 in gold and silver coin, four ounces of gold dust, seven gold watches, and two silver watches. At Davis's request, the booty was given to Dr. Sparks.

The noseless survivor confessed that the band had but recently joined together and had slain the two parties of Chinese and Americans. Someone examined Captain Davis's hat and found that at least six balls had passed through it. In the morning McDonald and the ten dead robbers were buried. The surviving bandit's wounds proved to be more serious than had been thought, and he died that day and was buried with the rest. John Webster and the other miners formed a coroner's jury and prepared a long statement setting forth the facts of the affair. They concluded, "From all the evidence before us, Captain Davis and his party acted solely in self-defence-were perfectly justifiable in killing these robbers - and that too much praise cannot be bestowed upon them for having so gallantly stopped the wild career of these lawless ruffians."

Seventeen of them signed the report, which was delivered to Placerville by one of their number, John E. Lyles. At the same time, John Webster wrote a long letter to a friend in Placerville offering his firsthand account ot the desperate battle in Rocky Canyon. The wounded Dr. Sparks was carried down the mountains to his home near Coloma by Captain Davis; unfortunately, the good doctor died there on December 26.

The coroner's report and the letter from John Webster created a sensation in Placerville. The Placerville Mountain Democrat ran an extra edition on December 23, publishing both accounts in full. The issue was reprinted by the San Francisco and Sacramento newspapers, and eventually by major newspapers in other parts of the country. So incredible was the story that many doubted it. The editor of the Mountain Democrat had reservations at first, commenting that the story might be "slightly, very slightly, exaggerated, but not impossible." The editor of the Sacramento Union was more blunt, suggesting that the story might be "bogus" and that the published accounts "savor strongly of Munchhausenism." The San Francisco California Chronicle countered with, "The story, though it might be considered certainly fabulous in any other country, is quite in character with things that often take place in California." The Mountain Democrat's, editor quickly pointed out that the seventeen miners who had signed the inquest report included "some of the most respectable men in our county." Of Captain Davis he wrote that "gentlemen in this city who have known him long and well place the most implicit confidence in his integrity."

Captain Davis was stung by the skepticism, which was a stain on his honor and credibility. The day after his friend Dr. Sparks died he came into Placerville and paid a visit to the editor of the Mountain Democrat and confirmed that the reports published in that newspaper were true. The next day the editor received and published a letter from John E. Lyles, who had not signed the original inquest report. Lyles also verified the story and provided additional details. Still there were skeptics and a rankled Captain Davis made a public offer in the columns of the Mountain Democrat to take any doubters to Rocky Canyon and show them the graves. No one took him up on his offer. On January 6 the paper published a letter from the captain, clearing up a few minor points and reaffirming the story. Davis concluded modestly, "I did only what hundreds of others might have done under similar circumstances, and attach no particular credit to myself for it."

The fact that his two friends died in a bandit raid that many believed never occurred continued to grate heavily on Captain Davis. The three miners who had witnessed the fight, John Webster, Isaac Hart, and P.S. Robertson, had moved to new diggings twenty miles farther up the mountains. They had no contact with outsiders until they were visited by a Mr. Williams, a brother-in-law of Dr. Sparks, who had searched for them for several weeks before finding their camp. Williams, who wanted to confirm the details of Dr. Sparks's death, told the three for the first time that their account had been discredited. As they related it, "Mr. Williams . . . told us that it was our duty to appear before the people at once, and verify our statement."

On March 20, 1855, three months after the battle, Captain Davis, Williams, and the three eyewitnesses appeared in the office of the Mountain Democrat. Before Judge R.M. Anderson and a delegation of prominent citizens they recounted the battle in detail. After careful questioning of Webster, Hart, and Robertson by Judge Anderson, those present were soon convinced that the fight had taken place exactly as described. The three young miners presented letters of introduction and also gave a written statement about the battle. Their testimony in a semiformal setting seems to have settled all doubts in the public mind.
 
Put in a nut shell...and possibly belonging there, all these should be thought of as 'large, fighting knives' and left at that !
 
Do you know of a current maker of replicas of Noah Smithwick's knives? - If you do, I would be a "buyer" for my TX Revolution impression.

yours, satx
 
I don't know of anyone currently doing them but any serious knife maker could do it. The design is basic and could be copied easily. That's one of the things I've always marveled at. Noah Smithwick gave his description, in writing, in 1899 and had told and shown folks his knives since the 1830's...still don't know why folks try so hard!
 
satx78247 said:
Do you know of a current maker of replicas of Noah Smithwick's knives? - If you do, I would be a "buyer" for my TX Revolution impression.

yours, satx

Give Wick Ellerbe a shout he can do it if anyone can and do it very well....
 
Don't want to step on anyones toes, or pop anyones balloon, but the knife in those links is NOT the knife carried by Jason Patrick in the 2004 Alamo movie. The knife being offered as the Alamo knife is just a poor version of the one carried by Alan Ladd in "THE IRON MISTRESS". The knife in the 2004 Alamo movie is a slightly smaller version of the "MUSSO" Bowie knife, which is quite different. Here is my version of the Musso knife. The differences are obvious, although I have always liked the Iron Mistress. The movie and the knife.

 
I just posted those links to show the Alan Ladd one,the one of yours is very similar to the one i gave my cousin,i think it was about a 400.00 knife but not sure of that as it was givin to me.I kept the one i stole from Sam Eliott



 
Wick, Chief, both very exciting knives. Thanks for showing.

Chief, OT a bit. Those brass bells hanging to the left in the second pic, what kind of bells are they? Do they have a specific purpose?
My wife is an avid bell collector and the curiosity rubs off onto me.
 
Sorry about that my puter went down,just got it runnin again,the pard may be right ,bull bells,i calle them reindeer bells,my grand daughter loves them,together that make a great reindeer sound,gal that owns an antique store here gave them to me for her.Now I'm gonna have to get one of those Alan Ladd bowie knives,hope they ain't to chincy lookin..
 
Addenda: WEARING a "Bowie's Knife" could be "hazardous to one's health", as wearing one in NOLA might get you "called out".

Ya, so many people were getting stuck with them that the carrying of one was outlawed in Kentucky and Tennessee in 1839.

On the main topic it is my understanding that ANY big knife back then could be called a "bowie knife". Perhaps a useful distinction could be that a Bowie was carried primarily as a weapon and as such, ran more expensive and ornate than regular butcher knives.

Important to recognize too that MOST Bowies from early on were made in Sheffield England. What I carry when Alamo reenacting is a Crazy Crow company "Cherokee" bowie, so called because this coffin-handled guardless Arkansas-type Bowie is ostensibly modeled after the one in a famous painting of an 1830's Cherokee named Tahchee, who reportedly had killed eighteen men, I dunno how many with a knife.

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I carry it because not only is it reminiscent of the James White Arkansas Bowies but it is actually a close copy of an English Gravely and Wreaks Bowie (1836-1838)... see....
http://www.antiquebowies.com/antiqueBowies/earlySheffield/Graveley/graveleyAndWreaks.htm

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It is important to note too that in contemporary references, just as any big knife could be called a "Bowie", so was the name "Arkansas Toothpick" liberally applied to a variety of large knives. In fact some English Bowies of the type we would recognize as Bowies were stamped with "Arkansas toothpick" on the blade.

My own feeling is that the Sheffield UK knife industry has had more influence on the style of the Bowie than we would care to admit. For example, this isn't a "Bowie", its a "Buffalo Knife", as marketed by the English knife makers through the Hudson's Bay Company in Canada.

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It is my understanding that similar knives were marketed by the English in South America generally known in English as "Gaucho knives".

There's a common and traditional form of Spanish knife too called the "beldique" which closely resembles a Bowie, usually having a clip-point and sometimes a small cross-guard. Perhaps it is no accident that our Bowie originated in a part of the US close to Spanish settlement.

Birdwatcher
 
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