If I wanted a buffalo rifle.....

[French Colonial]

It would not be a Hawken.

Let me explain my thoughts.

Prior to the Lewis and Clark expedition most of the Bison east of the Mississippi had already been killed and that was with flintlocks, at that time mostly full stocks.

When Lewis and Clark returned in 1806 they met with boats and hunter/traders going up river which again would have been obviously flintlocks and could have included some 1803 contract rifles.

So from 1806 to arguably 1836 all the rifles going in to the west would have been flintlocks, 30 years of killing buffalo with flintlocks before percussion guns even made the scene. How fast hunters gave up their tried and true flintlocks for new technology percussion guns is up for speculation but I am also one of those who believe that when they did there were more Leman's and others than genuine Hawken's. Rifles were being made by lots of less famous makers and many in larger numbers than Hawken.

Percussion guns then made the scene but in a very short amount of time were supplanted by cartridge rifles. Remington introduced the rolling block in 1867.

I believe the name Hawken is similar to the name Sharps, there is no question that there were many many more Remington rolling blocks on the frontier in the late 1800's than Sharps rifles (factory records show production numbers of rolling blocks dwarf the number of Sharps produced) and no question more bison were killed by rolling blocks but the Sharps has "the name" (makes you wonder what would have happened if Matthew Quigley carried a rolling block).

It is a little late for the time period I am interested in but I think if I ever go buffalo hunting out west again I will use a 1803, seems like the perfect buffalo gun, at least until the rolling block came along.

 

[The Crisco Kid]

For the most part I agree with you except that I'd pick the Leman. I have a Rolling Block in A FIXED CARTRIDGE as well as an early Plains style round ball rifle in .54 so I'm all set for the hunt I most likely will never have.

 

[springfield art]

I just bought a 'new in the box' Zoli replica 1803; very nicely fitted and assembled, dated 1975. They are interesting guns. I read where the L&C expedition had a flint .69 cal. made specifically to place on a riverboat mount in order to take on any possible hostiles on the riverbanks. Imagine if that gun were to be found!

 

[springfield art]

The Ken Burns film called 'American Buffalo' was eye-opening. I kinda knew it, but the general public does not.

 

[Johnny Tremain]

A friend's great grand father started a buffalo herd in about 1912. He bought a LEVER ACTION WITH FIXED CARTRIDGE.
My friend still uses the same rifle today.

I;d not shoot one with my flinter, its only 45 cal. Yet most of whats in the magic box will take them down.

 

[hanshi]

They're really big critters so I'd use my .50 with prb as a minimum.

 

[Rob M.]

It would not be a Hawken.

Let me explain my thoughts.

Prior to the Lewis and Clark expedition most of the Bison east of the Mississippi had already been killed and that was with flintlocks, at that time mostly full stocks.

When Lewis and Clark returned in 1806 they met with boats and hunter/traders going up river which again would have been obviously flintlocks and could have included some 1803 contract rifles.

So from 1806 to arguably 1836 all the rifles going in to the west would have been flintlocks, 30 years of killing buffalo with flintlocks before percussion guns even made the scene. How fast hunters gave up their tried and true flintlocks for new technology percussion guns is up for speculation but I am also one of those who believe that when they did there were more Leman's and others than genuine Hawken's. Rifles were being made by lots of less famous makers and many in larger numbers than Hawken.

Percussion guns then made the scene but in a very short amount of time were supplanted by cartridge rifles. Remington introduced the rolling block in 1867.

I believe the name Hawken is similar to the name Sharps, there is no question that there were many many more Remington rolling blocks on the frontier in the late 1800's than Sharps rifles (factory records show production numbers of rolling blocks dwarf the number of Sharps produced) and no question more bison were killed by rolling blocks but the Sharps has "the name" (makes you wonder what would have happened if Matthew Quigley carried a rolling block).

It is a little late for the time period I am interested in but I think if I ever go buffalo hunting out west again I will use a 1803, seems like the perfect buffalo gun, at least until the rolling block came along.

Yep ....quite correct ....

 

[nkbj]

If I wanted a buffalo rifle...
I have one. A TC New Englander. The .54 barrel was relined to a .457 bore and 24" twist so it surely would be a super penetrating squishy mushrooming load if I was to load it up to maximum bullet weight and maximum powder charge. The longer bullet to barrel contact length of a heavier bullet than what I prefer shooting would only make it more accurate.

 

[French Colonial]

If I wanted a buffalo rifle...
I have one. A TC New Englander. The .54 barrel was relined to a .457 bore and 24" twist so it surely would be a super penetrating squishy mushrooming load if I was to load it up to maximum bullet weight and maximum powder charge. The longer bullet to barrel contact length of a heavier bullet than what I prefer shooting would only make it more accurate.

You missed the point of my post entirely.

I was thinking something more historically correct, something that would have actually been used back in the day, maybe instead of "If I wanted a buffalo rifle" I should have asked "What would a reproduction of a buffalo rifle from the time period actually look like"

 

[smokeum54]

Navy arms buffalo hunter

 

[bud in pa]

On the History Channel the two Yuren brothers took a buffalo with a 50 cal. percussion, looked to be a TC.

 

[andy52]

Buffalo is really big and not the brightest bulb in the closet. I killed one several years ago with a .54 Hatfield Plains rifle. A drop-and-flop shot isn't likely with a muzzleloader. The one I shot was at 50 yds close enough that I saw where the ball hit, right behind the shoulder about middle top to bottom. The big dummy just kept browsing as if nothing had happened it walked for about 30 to 45 seconds and started wobbling from side to side and fell over. I wouldn't call it a buffalo hunt you just kinda' work your way up to the one you want and shoot it, not much hunting to it.

 

[French Colonial]

Buffalo is really big and not the brightest bulb in the closet. I killed one several years ago with a .54 Hatfield Plains rifle. A drop-and-flop shot isn't likely with a muzzleloader. The one I shot was at 50 yds close enough that I saw where the ball hit, right behind the shoulder about middle top to bottom. The big dummy just kept browsing as if nothing had happened it walked for about 30 to 45 seconds and started wobbling from side to side and fell over. I wouldn't call it a buffalo hunt you just kinda' work your way up to the one you want and shoot it, not much hunting to it.

My hunt was quite a bit different, we were driven out to either dug outs or Teepee's where we stayed for a week my best friend and I stayed in the dug out and it was cozy.
Once the truck dropped us off all travel was by horse. We had to saddle up and go looking for the different herds as according to the owner they congregated in three different groups and he had a huge amount of acreage.

We then either had to belly crawl or walk on the opposite side of the horse from the buffalo and tack back and forth quartering until we could get close enough to shoot. Luckily buffalo don't count feet.
Once they made you out, even from distance, they would stay out of rifle range.
It was a splendid experience, we all dressed in period attire.

Unfortunately, they went out of business, they were south of Dodge City KS.

 

[andy52]

T

My hunt was quite a bit different, we were driven out to either dug outs or Teepee's where we stayed for a week my best friend and I stayed in the dug out and it was cozy.
Once the truck dropped us off all travel was by horse. We had to saddle up and go looking for the different herds as according to the owner they congregated in three different groups and he had a huge amount of acreage.

We then either had to belly crawl or walk on the opposite side of the horse from the buffalo and tack back and forth quartering until we could get close enough to shoot. Luckily buffalo don't count feet.
Once they made you out, even from distance, they would stay out of rifle range.
It was a splendid experience, we all dressed in period attire.

Unfortunately, they went out of business, they were south of Dodge City KS.

My whole hunt was two days total, it was Nebraska and a winter hunt. Better hides that time of year, Total cost was right around 3500 and that included all the processing of the meat and I got to keep the hide, head and all.
The hunt wasn't that challenging, the critters were in a small draw so working your way in for the shot wasn't that difficult.
3500 may sound high but there's a lot of meat on those big bulls, plus I used the hide later on to make a buffalo coat with which I sold for 1500.

 

[tiklikker]

I used to think I''d like to hunt Buffalo with my GPR. Then I saw a couple of Buffalo hunting videos with various firearms. They all kind of looked about as exciting as shooting a Volkswagon. To each his own, but took that off my list.

Nowadays, When I shoot a fly or a spider off the ceiling with my Bug-A-Salt, I pound my chest with it and say "Great hunter, yes?" Wife says "Yes".
I respond "That is all you need to know."

 

[tenngun]

The last buff in New York was seen in early eighteenth century. They were hunted out with smoothies.
I’ve never hunted buff but think my TFC would be plenty
Hanson said typical rifles in the early MM period were .50, sporting three and a half foot barrels.
As I recall Germany’s top ace who taught the Red Barron how to dog fight said ‘ it isn’t the machine it’s the man’ I think that holds true for hunting with an ml

 

[French Colonial]

The last buff in New York was seen in early eighteenth century. They were hunted out with smoothies.
I’ve never hunted buff but think my TFC would be plenty
Hanson said typical rifles in the early MM period were .50, sporting three and a half foot barrels.
As I recall Germany’s top ace who taught the Red Barron how to dog fight said ‘ it isn’t the machine it’s the man’ I think that holds true for hunting with an ml

Yes agree completely, The buffalo/bison east of the Mississippi were all killed by smoothbores and rifles (and quite a few arrows) basically from what we consider the colonial period using colonial era weapons. The closest thing to a Hawken would have been a Jaeger, short, large bore etc.

I always heard the saying as "It's not the arrows, it's the Indian" and your right, holds true for ML'ers as well.

But, whether it is golf, where everyone has to have the newest driver on the market or pistol/rifle competitors who keep changing to the newest firearm to try and improve their scores, the largest group ignore practice and rely on their pocket book.

 

[Ranch 13]

Just about any 50 or 54 caliber flintlock would be representative of a rifle carried in the plains pre1860’s. But that’s not to say smaller calibers weren’t present
The Buffalo hide trade reached its peak after its the civil war and was short lived.
Remington rollers were sort of the AK of the day with large numbers produced in military contracts. Sharps wasn’t ever quite able to gather those contracts.

 

[nkbj]

You missed the point of my post entirely.

I was thinking something more historically correct, something that would have actually been used back in the day, maybe instead of "If I wanted a buffalo rifle" I should have asked "What would a reproduction of a buffalo rifle from the time period actually look like"

A few years ago on the forum there were photos of an original flintlock rifle of about 3/4" bore that had been made with flip up long range sights with the apertures shifted left for longer ranges to adjust for the lateral drift created by the rotation of the descending ball. That's about as close to an authentic period piece buffalo rifle as I can imagine. Oh, and by the way, seems to me it was French.

Along those lines it's been tempting to me to have a rifled barrel made for the 1816 musket. It would have to be smaller than 3/4" but wow, it could be a booger. Currently I have begun experimenting with a sight mounted on a spare rear barrel band.

 

[andy52]

A few years ago on the forum there were photos of an original flintlock rifle of about 3/4" bore that had been made with flip up long range sights with the apertures shifted left for longer ranges to adjust for the lateral drift created by the rotation of the descending ball. That's about as close to an authentic period piece buffalo rifle as I can imagine. Oh, and by the way, seems to me it was French.

Along those lines it's been tempting to me to have a rifled barrel made for the 1816 musket. It would have to be smaller than 3/4" but wow, it could be a booger. Currently I have begun experimenting with a sight mounted on a spare rear barrel band.

I have a .75 cal Yeager that is a beast, if I had it when I did the buffalo hunt, I would have used it.