India Barrel Failure

[maillemaker]

I am not a fan of buying any firearm not manufactured to be a firearm, and I've made no secret of this in the past.

But, at this point all we have is a picture with a second-hand story.

I've asked Mr. Nemeth for more information on this. All that was said so far was that, "The barrel blew up at the CIP proof house while pressure proofing with the charge determinated by the CIP agreement."

No other details.

Now I have no reason to doubt Mr. Nemeth and I'm a big fan of his videos and believe he tries to convey accurate information.

But as I asked him on facebook, more details are needed to corroborate this story. Otherwise, it's just another internet picture with a second-hand story.

What gun did this barrel come off of? What was the caliber? Who manufactured it? What proof house conducted the test? What was the test, exactly? What was the date of the test? Whose gun was it? Why was it being proofed?

 

[FlinterNick]

I am not a fan of buying any firearm not manufactured to be a firearm, and I've made no secret of this in the past.

But, at this point all we have is a picture with a second-hand story.

I've asked Mr. Nemeth for more information on this. All that was said so far was that, "The barrel blew up at the CIP proof house while pressure proofing with the charge determinated by the CIP agreement."

No other details.

Now I have no reason to doubt Mr. Nemeth and I'm a big fan of his videos and believe he tries to convey accurate information.

But as I asked him on facebook, more details are needed to corroborate this story. Otherwise, it's just another internet picture with a second-hand story.

What gun did this barrel come off of? What was the caliber? Who manufactured it? What proof house conducted the test? What was the test, exactly? What was the date of the test? Whose gun was it? Why was it being proofed?

I spoke with him too. He said there were three Indian made guns that failed. They’ll be releasing more information shortly, but one of them won’t be releasing information because there’s a sensitive legal issue.

 

[dave_person]

Hi Guys,
As I understand, many India made barrels are routinely proofed in Europe and the UK for use in the retail trade for firearm reproductions. I would not be surprised if a few failed the proofing. I wonder how many muzzleloader barrels made from 12L14 steel, the common material in the US, would fail proofing tests particularly after the builder attached the lugs and sights and maybe even reprofiled the barrel. My point is there don't seem to be many stories like this anywhere. So, even if the barrel failed and you take the report at face value, what does it really mean. I suggest not much. I want to see dozens of stories like this from different proof houses before I would be concerned. These stories trigger folks into knee-jerk reactions without thinking about what the story actually says or implies. I don't admire India-made guns as a product but I do admire the workmen who made them and I am humbled and awed by their skills in primitive conditions. Ten percent of all Brown Bess musket barrels made during the 18th century failed proofing. It does annoy me when folks make sweeping statements based on perceptions and unsupported biases. I am all for compelling evidence and reliable analyses. Having wrote all that, my opinion of the highest and best use of an India-made barrel is as a challenging hanging target.

They are so skinny and historically incorrect they make great targets.

dave

 

[sussexmuzllodr]

So when Pedersoli tells you 35gr max in their .50cal Queen Anne it's unsafe?

I have done 50 grains in mine to no ill effects. although I would not do it again...

 

[sussexmuzllodr]

I have gathered all the opinions and come to the following summation.
I would be more comfortable with something out of a plumbing supply House.

 

[Brokennock]

Hi Guys,
As I understand, many India made barrels are routinely proofed in Europe and the UK for use in the retail trade for firearm reproductions. I would not be surprised if a few failed the proofing. I wonder how many muzzleloader barrels made from 12L14 steel, the common material in the US, would fail proofing tests particularly after the builder attached the lugs and sights and maybe even reprofiled the barrel. My point is there don't seem to be many stories like this anywhere. So, even if the barrel failed and you take the report at face value, what does it really mean. I suggest not much. I want to see dozens of stories like this from different proof houses before I would be concerned. These stories trigger folks into knee-jerk reactions without thinking about what the story actually says or implies. I don't admire India-made guns as a product but I do admire the workmen who made them and I am humbled and awed by their skills in primitive conditions. Ten percent of all Brown Bess musket barrels made during the 18th century failed proofing. It does annoy me when folks make sweeping statements based on perceptions and unsupported biases. I am all for compelling evidence and reliable analyses. Having wrote all that, my opinion of the highest and best use of an India-made barrel is as a challenging hanging target.

They are so skinny and historically incorrect they make great targets.

dave

Are you suggesting people look at this subject with some perspective?
Maybe you've been working too hard Mr. Person.....



Seriously, you are spot on. I see this same lack of perspective amd objectivity in many of the, "the sky is falling," panic button, so called "safety concern" conversations here. Compared to how many muzzleloaders exist and get shot and how frequently,,, how often are these events occurring?

 

[Brokennock]

I see in "The American Rifleman", that Taurus is going to be starting manufacturing in India. That really ought'a raise the overall quality of the guns!

It can't get worse.

 

[waksupi]

So when Pedersoli tells you 35gr max in their .50cal Queen Anne it's unsafe?

Maybe they know the quality of their steel? I condemned two separate lots of barrels made in America for higher pressure chamberings, using European steel. That cost the company in the neighborhood of a $150,000.

 

[FlinterNick]

Hi Guys,
As I understand, many India made barrels are routinely proofed in Europe and the UK for use in the retail trade for firearm reproductions. I would not be surprised if a few failed the proofing. I wonder how many muzzleloader barrels made from 12L14 steel, the common material in the US, would fail proofing tests particularly after the builder attached the lugs and sights and maybe even reprofiled the barrel. My point is there don't seem to be many stories like this anywhere. So, even if the barrel failed and you take the report at face value, what does it really mean. I suggest not much. I want to see dozens of stories like this from different proof houses before I would be concerned. These stories trigger folks into knee-jerk reactions without thinking about what the story actually says or implies. I don't admire India-made guns as a product but I do admire the workmen who made them and I am humbled and awed by their skills in primitive conditions. Ten percent of all Brown Bess musket barrels made during the 18th century failed proofing. It does annoy me when folks make sweeping statements based on perceptions and unsupported biases. I am all for compelling evidence and reliable analyses. Having wrote all that, my opinion of the highest and best use of an India-made barrel is as a challenging hanging target.

They are so skinny and historically incorrect they make great targets.

dave

Hi Dave, more information will be published about this soon, however would you be surprised if the barrels failed proofing after being proof stamped ? While i do believe the majority of Indian made barrels are safe, the test (CIP standard test) was performed on barrels that were already CIP proofed, or already had been stamped as proofed. Either the CIP proof tests were not performed correctly the first time or the importer is stamping barrels illegally somehow, 3 out of 3 failed.

On another note, i was reading that manton was permitted by the government to have his own proofing, was interesting to hear that, is this accurate ?

 

[FlinterNick]

Maybe they know the quality of their steel? I condemned two separate lots of barrels made in America for higher pressure chamberings, using European steel. That cost the company in the neighborhood of a $150,000.

Sounds like a manufacturing mistake. A few years back Chiappa had some Spencer and Henry rifles that were over threaded in the chamber, causing barrels to come loose while shooting, most of these were in 45 long colt, and were either replaced or repaired. These guns also were proof tested. Unfortunately there are lemons out there, however nobody wants to be the statistic. Just look at what Boeing is doing currently.

 

[waksupi]

Sounds like a manufacturing mistake. A few years back Chiappa had some Spencer and Henry rifles that were over threaded in the chamber, causing barrels to come loose while shooting, most of these were in 45 long colt, and were either replaced or repaired. These guns also were proof tested. Unfortunately there are lemons out there, however nobody wants to be the statistic. Just look at what Boeing is doing currently.

No manufacturing mistake on the part of the barrels, it was the steel itself that was out of spec. Heavily leaded.

 

[Commodore Swab]

I don’t really have an opinion on this topic, but curious. Please share your analysis and data. I’m sure it will prove to be an interesting read and help educate us all.

Thanks in advance.

As you have noticed nothing has come up which is why I consider his opinion.

They are so skinny and historically incorrect they make great targets.

dave

I would love to see some competition. A Murdock is a good example and has been mentioned before. Your option is an india with incorrect lock operation or having one individually built for you from TRS parts. There really is no other option. A queen anne is another example, the joke pendersoli produces (no integrated lock, turn off barrel ect) or having one made from TRS or Blackley parts. How about a hand mortar, Veteran or custom built. The list goes on. I say custom built because odds are if someone can build a kit from TRS rebuilding an india piece should be easy. There are a few that have options and a bess is definitely one. In cases like this you can compare quality but price should also be compared. Long story short they are filling a void.

Hi Dave, more information will be published about this soon, . . .

Still waiting along with others I'm sure.

 

[sussexmuzllodr]

Nick I have a P-Soli Queen Anne. In absence of other choices available. I would love to have someone produce a high quality Historically correct piece but the price for such a thing would be enormous outside of owning an original. SUS

 

[PathfinderNC]

If Boing has discovered counterfeit Titanium being used on their Airbus planes, as recently reported, who knows what can be found in gun barrel steel passing as “proofed”?

 

[FlinterNick]

No manufacturing mistake on the part of the barrels, it was the steel itself that was out of spec. Heavily leaded.

What were they using ? En48?

 

[TrophyGuy]

How would a failed test specimen ever come available to the public domain? This is obviously fake news, unverifiable to any reputable source. That said, the notion of substandard products from Indian industry has a basis. There are modern examples of advanced technology from India, but sadly, poverty and third world deprivation are rampant. Western companies like Taurus, Triumph motorcycles and Jaguar automobiles eagerly exploit a market of poverty stricken, but relatively well educated labor.

 

[FlinterNick]

How would a failed test specimen ever come available to the public domain? This is obviously fake news, unverifiable to any reputable source. That said, the notion of substandard products from Indian industry has a basis. There are modern examples of advanced technology from India, but sadly, poverty and third world deprivation are rampant. Western companies like Taurus, Triumph motorcycles and Jaguar automobiles eagerly exploit a market of poverty stricken, but relatively well educated labor.

The barrels were already CIP proofed, and stamped.The barrels were retested because a specific importer of the barrels was suspected of stamping barrels as proofed, it was tested privately in accordance to CIP standards.

I dont believe the issue lies with the Indian barrel makers as much as it does the importer, something is not right about what is being sold by this one specific importer in Eastern Europe.

 

[Aglukan]

I have gathered all the opinions and come to the following summation.
I would be more comfortable with something out of a plumbing supply House.

I feel the same way here. understood that people jump to conclusion. Out of curiosity i called up a barrel maker and asked if they could inspect my India made musket, they simply said no they don’t proof or offer opinions on any barrels they do build. Lastly he stated he would not trust the barrel and he emphasized his use of the word trust.

 

[Commodore Swab]

Nick I have a P-Soli Queen Anne. In absence of other choices available. I would love to have someone produce a high quality Historically correct piece but the price for such a thing would be enormous outside of owning an original. SUS

Correct queen anne pistols are available by blackley and the rifle shoppe.

 

[FlinterNick]

Nick I have a P-Soli Queen Anne. In absence of other choices available. I would love to have someone produce a high quality Historically correct piece but the price for such a thing would be enormous outside of owning an original. SUS

I’ll keep an eye out. Occasionally they come my way. I’ve had some come through as unfinished kits.