India Barrel Failure

[sussexmuzllodr]

When it comes down to Indian Barrels the question can be asked "is the steel used produced to an industry standard" or is it willy nilly as to what is poured out of a industrial sized crucible?
I would imagine that Steel produced with a constant crystalline structure would be subject to less scrutiny?
Or are they produced out of a Garage Some where?

 

[waksupi]

Something is really off with the information. As far as I know, the India dog locks are .60cal and call for a 30grain charge. 200 would be intended to blow the barrel. I wonder how many balls they loaded. I agree that Capandball is usually a great source of information. I suspect he was re-posting something 2nd hand. Here's 11bangbang's video on how to blow up an India barrel.

When a company tells you to only shoot 30 grains of powder, THEY ARE TELLING YOU THE GUNS ARE UNSAFE! People who just shoot blanks shouldn't even post on a shooters board.

FYI, the old Sharon company loaded 1800 gr, under 18 patched round balls. No harm done to the barrel.

 

[FlinterNick]

Hi Dave- you’re right about the vagueness of this proofing account. So much of the article was in Hungarian, with some FB translating. Perhaps it was just a novelty post? Coming from Capandball made me think the information was reputable. Who knows.

I woudl trust Balazs Nemeth, he spends a lot of time in the field working with black powder guns, I highly doubt that Balazs loaded a black powder gun incorrectly

 

[sussexmuzllodr]

So what I gather an Indian made barrel could be suspect just due to a lack of Standards?
It would take a small amount of impurities as basis for barrel Failure?
So it would be a matter of "when" and not "if" ?

 

[FlinterNick]

This gentleman,

,,,,, is spot on.
Has nothing to do with metal, scrap or otherwise.
If this were a legit test, why did it blow where pressure is lowest. If the proof load (which also sounds suspect) blew the barrel due to faulty steel, construction, or design, it would have blown at the breach where pressure was at its peak.

Something, like an obstruction, spikes pressure somewhere between the wedding band transition and the muzzle.

Or it could be a bad butt weld on a forged steel tube. This is very possible.

On the bottom you’ll see an Indian made barrel, a brown bess. Courtesy of a member here on the forum.

The breech is rather thin with the breech plug barely interfacing seated with the bore, it just screws in, i think it’s safe… but i don’t like it and dont trust it.

The threads are also very shallow.

 

[FlinterNick]

So what I gather an Indian made barrel could be suspect just due to a lack of Standards?
It would take a small amount of impurities as basis for barrel Failure?
So it would be a matter of "when" and not "if" ?

It depends on how the steel is recycle and whats being thrown into a pile.

I’ve had many Indian made parts that are not magnetic, indicating high amounts of stainless steel alloys or possibly aluminum properties.

Same with their brass, it’s often a recycled heavy in copper or zinc or tin.

 

[sussexmuzllodr]

I gather that you should stay away from riding their Buses also....

 

[FlinterNick]

Well, cap and ball IS a pedersoli dealer in Hungary…….

Blazes Nemeth has more video’s on loading and shooting, I’ve seen him live fire original guns. I seriously doubt he would intentionally load a gun incorrectly to say it failed a proof test.

 

[FlinterNick]

I gather that you should stay away from riding their Buses also....

I don’t know about bus’s but here is how they answered a question about their barrels at the Rajahstan Armory, in the video you can see that the barrels are being forged over a mandrel. I would hesitate to say if these are what military heritage calls carbon steel cold rolled tubing for their barrels, they’re not correct. Hammering out a barrel over a mandrel can be done with iron or wrought but i have my doubts about doing it with steel alloys.

 

[mikesto44]

The best advice I received when starting to shoot black powder rifles. Never load more than double the caliber.
Never understood why people proof their guns with. Three to five times more than they will ever use in the gun.

 

[Brokennock]

Or it could be a bad butt weld on a forged steel tube. This is very possible.

On the bottom you’ll see an Indian made barrel, a brown bess. Courtesy of a member here on the forum.

The breech is rather thin with the breech plug barely interfacing seated with the bore, it just screws in, i think it’s safe… but i don’t like it and dont trust it.

The threads are also very shallow.

Either way, it didn't burst at the breech.

 

[Commodore Swab]

Just wondering nick since you talk like an expert. . .Are you using a single manufacture to lump all made in India guns together? Different importers are known for using different companies. It doesn't seem right to lump them all together. I have seen more questionable barrel thickness from American manufacturers. On numerous times you have commented on scrap or junk steel. Have you actually analyzed anything,any evidence? Can you back up any claims? It sounds like an opinion from someone unhappy there is another option available.

 

[sussexmuzllodr]

Gents, Just a illustration if I may.....I am sure that there are both European and American made Damascus Barrels that under normal use are still in service.
I think the main concern is that with the aforementioned vs. Indian Muskets it is the material and construction method,s as to why they are called into question when this topic pops up.

Just my 2 cnts. best, SUS

 

[sussexmuzllodr]

Out of the Choices below circle the best answer as related to having the greatest possibility to occur.
A . Thompson Center Barrel failure
B. Oil Barrel Failure
C. Rice Barrel Failure
D Indian Barrel Failure
E. Pickle Barrel Failure
F. Whiskey Barrel failure.

 

[SDSmlf]

Have you actually analyzed anything,any evidence?

I don’t really have an opinion on this topic, but curious. Please share your analysis and data. I’m sure it will prove to be an interesting read and help educate us all.

Thanks in advance.

 

[FlinterNick]

Either way, it didn't burst at the breech.

Doesn’t have to burst at the breech if the weld is no good

 

[waksupi]

I see in "The American Rifleman", that Taurus is going to be starting manufacturing in India. That really ought'a raise the overall quality of the guns!

 

[Frontstuffer070]

My .02 is that people love to hate on bargain items. No matter what it is. I don't have a dog in this fight as I don't own an Indian made gun, yet. I am planning on buying an Arquebus though. India is the only source I know of that is producing such a reproduction. And well they offer many that are not found anywhere else. I follow 11 bang bang as it seems they own and fire many of these Indian guns, and fire them a lot. Because of this their opinion is warranted. I think it may be the same sort of arrangement many U.S. companies have with china. Importers expect the factory, whomever it may be to manufacture the product to their specifications. I beileve people like Veteran Arms have a say in the product specs they are importing. I could be wrong. But I doubt they are just selling whatever dirt floor made Muskets they can get.

 

[deGheyn]

When a company tells you to only shoot 30 grains of powder, THEY ARE TELLING YOU THE GUNS ARE UNSAFE! People who just shoot blanks shouldn't even post on a shooters board.

FYI, the old Sharon company loaded 1800 gr, under 18 patched round balls. No harm done to the barrel.

So when Pedersoli tells you 35gr max in their .50cal Queen Anne it's unsafe?

 

[FlinterNick]

So when Pedersoli tells you 35gr max in their .50cal Queen Anne it's unsafe?

You’ll probably lose control of the pistol if you over load it, but they are proof tested and CIP stamped