India Barrel Failure

[TFoley]

I woudl trust Balazs Nemeth, he spends a lot of time in the field working with black powder guns, I highly doubt that Balazs loaded a black powder gun incorrectly

HE didn't load anything, it was the Hungarian State Proof House that did the biz here.

 

[sussexmuzllodr]

Correct queen anne pistols are available by blackley and the rifle shoppe.

Thanks commodore.

 

[sussexmuzllodr]

I’ll keep an eye out. Occasionally they come my way. I’ve had some come through as unfinished kits.

Thanks.

 

[TFoley]

How would a failed test specimen ever come available to the public domain? This is obviously fake news, unverifiable to any reputable source. That said, the notion of substandard products from Indian industry has a basis. There are modern examples of advanced technology from India, but sadly, poverty and third world deprivation are rampant. Western companies like Taurus, Triumph motorcycles and Jaguar automobiles eagerly exploit a market of poverty stricken, but relatively well educated labor.

The owner of the pistol might have originally bought it as a decoration piece, which does not require proof in any CIP signature country, and subsequently requested it get proofed so that he could shoot it. Unfortunately it failed proof. It being private property, it was returned to the owner with a failure certification. It is not the property of the Proof House.

The thing that concerns me about this is that ALL firearms are VERY closely inspected BEFORE proofing is carried out - this is the 'primary view. THEN it is proofed, and having passed proof, gets the appropriate stamp, but only after another close inspection has been carried out to ensure that there is no residual damage resulting from the proof test. Of course, if there is any damage, then it will have failed proof.

Dr Németh is not a panic-monger, nor is he underly-generous with the truth, as you seem to imply in your post. He is a highly-regarded senior lecturer on military history in an important university in Budapest and a leading light on BP shooting of all kinds in his native country and internationally.

 

[sturmkatze]

More circular arguments.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

200 grains in a pistol? Most of that charge is going out of that barrel unburned. It took 11 bang bang like 1200 grain and a double round ball to burst an Indian spring steel barrel.

Small correction, that DOM barrel is not 'spring' steel, which is hardened. (DOM = Drawn Over Mandrel, same process as most aerospace/hydraulic tubing here & world-wide is made)

I dont believe the issue lies with the Indian barrel makers as much as it does the importer, something is not right about what is being sold by this one specific importer in Eastern Europe.

After reading through 5-pages ... I think this speaks to the source of the issue, i.e., just look at all the other examples of counterfeit steel products out there ...

 

[Whitworth]

I see in "The American Rifleman", that Taurus is going to be starting manufacturing in India. That really ought'a raise the overall quality of the guns!

I saw 9mm ammo imported from India, the price was good but I passed for only slightly higher priced Winchester When getting your face and hands near high pressure it's no place to go cheap. JMHO.

 

[Hermit Tim]

Looks like something wrong or the "powder" wasn't black powder.

Yep that looks similar to pics I've seen showing the aftermath of shooting modern powder in a muzzleloader.

 

[waksupi]

I saw 9mm ammo imported from India, the price was good but I passed for only slightly higher priced Winchester When getting your face and hands near high pressure it's no place to go cheap. JMHO.

Good plan, 9mm is notoriously spikey in reloads.

 

[Tumbledown]

I see in "The American Rifleman", that Taurus is going to be starting manufacturing in India. That really ought'a raise the overall quality of the guns!

It's a joint venture with Jindal Defense. These are modern weapons in modern factories, and Taurus itself has completely modernized its production in recent years. Unfortunately, old reputations are hard to overcome.

 

[Zapadach]

I feel the same way here. understood that people jump to conclusion. Out of curiosity i called up a barrel maker and asked if they could inspect my India made musket, they simply said no they don’t proof or offer opinions on any barrels they do build. Lastly he stated he would not trust the barrel and he emphasized his use of the word trust.

You asked a barrel maker his opinion ? This is like asking a Harley Davidson executive, which is a better product, an HD, or an Indian motorcycle.

 

[brushblind]

Rigged barrel failure story.
Throughout my 60+ years building & shooting muzzleloaders I've observed a few barrel failures as shown
in the photo above & those were caused by not seating the projectile on the powder charge or having an additional
restriction in or near the muzzle.

Exactly

 

[cyten]

HERE is a follow up he did on the barrel, interview with the CIP proofhouse: https://capandball.com/how-the-indi...gY1bFrQv6dMxKUc3k8_aem_ZmFrZWR1bW15MTZieXRlcw

if you're too lazy to read the whole interview, the CIP said of this particular barrel:

This was a .62 caliber smooth bore flintlock pistol made by R.A. in India, probably Daipur. There is no available information on who is “R.A”, whether it is a company, an individual. The standard caliber and bore-specific proofing charge was used set by the technical annex of the C.I.P. regulations for proofing black powder arms: 10 g (154 grain) of 4Fg Swiss No. 1. black powder and 55 g (849 grain) of lead shot. Powder was topped with 20 mm felt wad, shot was held in place with 10 mm felt wad. This proof charge would have allowed a maximum service charge of 5 g (77 grain) black powder and 25 g (385 grain) projectile. The pistol barrel burst upon the first proofing shot, therefore it was rejected of course.

 

[FlinterNick]

Exactly

Rigged ? The article suggestions the procedure was done very professionally.

 

[FlinterNick]

You asked a barrel maker his opinion ? This is like asking a Harley Davidson executive, which is a better product, an HD, or an Indian motorcycle.

He asked someone well experienced in the craft of barrel making, who else would he ask, a forum member ?

 

[FlinterNick]

Yep that looks similar to pics I've seen showing the aftermath of shooting modern powder in a muzzleloader.

So there is a difference in how a barrel explodes between smokeless powder and black powder ? Do you blow up barrels often ? If a barrel fails, it’s going to explode, and the gas will go where it is most able to go.

 

[PathfinderNC]

HERE is a follow up he did on the barrel, interview with the CIP proofhouse: https://capandball.com/how-the-indi...gY1bFrQv6dMxKUc3k8_aem_ZmFrZWR1bW15MTZieXRlcw

if you're too lazy to read the whole interview, the CIP said of this particular barrel:

This was a .62 caliber smooth bore flintlock pistol made by R.A. in India, probably Daipur. There is no available information on who is “R.A”, whether it is a company, an individual. The standard caliber and bore-specific proofing charge was used set by the technical annex of the C.I.P. regulations for proofing black powder arms: 10 g (154 grain) of 4Fg Swiss No. 1. black powder and 55 g (849 grain) of lead shot. Powder was topped with 20 mm felt wad, shot was held in place with 10 mm felt wad. This proof charge would have allowed a maximum service charge of 5 g (77 grain) black powder and 25 g (385 grain) projectile. The pistol barrel burst upon the first proofing shot, therefore it was rejected of course.

Thank you for that link. It certainly does satisfy conclusively all the questions that arose for me, and I think to those questions posted here regarding this test as well.

****I would highly recommend others read the article. It is factual and professional ****

I appreciate the closing remarks by Balázs Németh; in general, “You get what you pay for”!

 

[PathfinderNC]

He asked someone well experienced in the craft of barrel making, who else would he ask, a forum member ?

With all the experts here? Silly you

 

[Hermit Tim]

So there is a difference in how a barrel explodes between smokeless powder and black powder ? Do you blow up barrels often ? If a barrel fails, it’s going to explode, and the gas will go where it is most able to go.

No idea. Simple statement that that is what the pics look like when using modern powder. Never claimed to be an expert. That's just what I saw. Sorry, not the world's foremost barrel expert. I'm just a forum member...

 

[deGheyn]

The info has now been posted: https://capandball.com/how-the-indian-made-flintlock-pistol-blew-up-upon-c-i-p-proofing/

The load used in this pistol was 10 g (154 grain) of 4Fg Swiss No. 1. black powder and 55 g (849 grain) of lead shot. Powder was topped with 20 mm felt wad, shot was held in place with 10 mm felt wad.