India Barrel Failure

[FlinterNick]

A question on this and not to stir the pot....Are Indian made Guns and the metal they are made of made to a set of standards across their Industry of such?

Any questions about Indian made guns stir the pot sour, I’m sure at this moment someone is attempting to censor this page of its opinions.

 

[sussexmuzllodr]

Simple answer…. NOPE

thanks Nick

 

[Coinneach]

What information made you aware that it was not imported form a main company ? What is a main company ? Maybe they can’t release too much private information, this is possible.

I was referred by my gunsmith to a company that does private safety tests on guns, he also advised me to not self proof my own barrel. I showed him those instructions from loyal arms and he said it is extremely unwise and dangerous to do your own barrel tests. He suggest that a third party do the test because it is a guarantee of integrity, as he put it you proof test your own barrel because you want to be sure its safe to shoot and transfer but it is your barrel and you have an interest in saying its ok and would be more opportune to overlook certain things that someone else would not. i happen to agree with this, and chose did to not my own proofing test.

Years ago I belonged to a Napoleonic reenactment group who proof tested Indian made Besses, we fired blank charges and range live firing volleys etc.
In over 20 years I never witnessed or heard of an Indian made .75cal BP barrel failing the proof testing in our group, or some of the other reenactment groups.

The Flintlocks did need some internal adjustment and polishing to work effectively, and we as a collective helped newcomers with that.

 

[Coinneach]

Nice to get a fairer review re Indian items Loyalist is the only firm I know if not by guns they supplied rather a business link supplying items .
Rudyard

Ive never heard anyone being dissapointed in the Indian manufactured ML's that Loyalist Arms (LA) market, the common assumption was that LA sourced their stock from validated manufacturers rather than haphazard village craftsmen; maybe you could expand on that Rudyard.

 

[Rudyard]

Years ago I belonged to a Napoleonic reenactment group who proof tested Indian made Besses, we fired blank charges and range live firing volleys etc.
In over 20 years I never witnessed or heard of an Indian made .75cal BP barrel failing the proof testing in our group, or some of the other reenactment groups.

The Flintlocks did need some internal adjustment and polishing to work effectively, and we as a collective helped newcomers with that.

Reenactment who did Napoleonic Me too if mostly did Waterloo 1995 if as HBM OR 92nd Gordons but camped with the 95th , KGL & some Swiss Demuerons .No Indian gun just an original Bess I took with me . Did knock up an Indian Bess if pretending to be a' Cols Private purchase' . All made from three separate part guns, used it years but left it in the US after the 8 11 mess .
Regard's Rudyard

 

[cebusey]

Not sure i agree with that, Dixie gun works and Taylor’s both are selling various Pedersoli products for below the base. Dixie’s Brown Bess was 900 back in 2019, is now 1295, for a brand new out of the box musket with a distributor and manufactures warranty that’s a pretty good deal.

In the secondary market, you can get used pedersoli’s and navy arms guns for under 1,000 or sometimes even less.

Loyalist arms is probably the only Indian made gun dealer I’d recommend in the USA. I just spoke with someone yesterday who is waiting on his 4th year for a middlesex trading Fowler, he’s attempted to cancel and the business owner refuses a refund, that was $725 bucks 4 years ago, inflated now around 900 as a loan to purchase ghost inventory.

But thank god Indian guns are cheaper….you may never actually get one.

Do not fall in the trap of painting all suppliers with the middlesex experience. I have dealt with Loyalist for nearly 25 years and have had nothing but good transactions and support.

 

[FlinterNick]

Do not fall in the trap of painting all suppliers with the middlesex experience. I have dealt with Loyalist for nearly 25 years and have had nothing but good transactions and support.

I’ve actually recommended loyalist arms to others, if they wish to purchase an Indian made arm, i always send them in that direction. I have a lot of respect for them personally, and i do business with them for things like bayonets.

Loyalist Arms does a pretty thorough review of their products and will actually state in disclosure if a gun they sell can live fire or blank fire only and yes not all of their guns are capable of being fired.

The other companies that deal with Indian made arms do not provide nearly the quality of customer service they do.

 

[Brokennock]

I wish someone would give us some unbiased perspective on this (and other so called "safety" issues that get argued about here) and find us some data on how many of these are blowing up compared to how many are in use. It would be nice to get similar data for barrels made in the US, UK, and Europe.
I do understand that the numbers can't be 100% conclusive. Too many variables such as frequency and type of use, as well as hard to determine actual use versus sales numbers, especially for the India made guns.
But a rough idea of how common these issues are in the big picture would be good.

 

[Frontier's]

Didn't someone on here have a post about am India made shotgun and showed the breech plugs and how he had to replace them all due to how shoddy it was made?

 

[FlinterNick]

I wish someone would give us some unbiased perspective on this (and other so called "safety" issues that get argued about here) and find us some data on how many of these are blowing up compared to how many are in use. It would be nice to get similar data for barrels made in the US, UK, and Europe.
I do understand that the numbers can't be 100% conclusive. Too many variables such as frequency and type of use, as well as hard to determine actual use versus sales numbers, especially for the India made guns.
But a rough idea of how common these issues are in the big picture would be good.

There are a few issues with that of which nobody can claim to know here because of the following, disclosure, real statistics vs. hypothetical ones. And when presented with real data as such the Indian barrel failure in a very real CIP proof test in this forum, the so called experts descend upon here in disbelief and innuendo.

The best experts in the country are the guys that make the barrels. They rely heavily on repeat business, and do their best to limit their legal liabilities. If you call up Jason at Rice Barrels, he will literally tell you, I would not trust my life with one of those barrel, and he will give you very good reasons why. Ed Rayl is more speculative, while he refuses to work on them now because he doesn’t know what kind of steel they’re made of and wont mess with them. Bobby Hoyt has his limitations too, he needs to inspect the barrel closely before working on them. Green Mountain or any other barrel makers in the USA that deal in cartridge fire arms and black powder will all give you some very strong opinion backed by fact. The general consensus is they’re risky, even Loyalist arms disqualifies some of their guns their receive as unshootable. So is your risk of failure greater or lesser with an alternative e such as a Pedersoli, pedersoli’s are proofed and warranted, the risk is at greater of failure with an Indian made arm for which is not, and is unwarranted.

 

[Brokennock]

There are a few issues with that of which nobody can claim to know here because of the following, disclosure, real statistics vs. hypothetical ones. And when presented with real data as such the Indian barrel failure in a very real CIP proof test in this forum, the so called experts descend upon here in disbelief and innuendo.

The best experts in the country are the guys that make the barrels. They rely heavily on repeat business, and do their best to limit their legal liabilities. If you call up Jason at Rice Barrels, he will literally tell you, I would not trust my life with one of those barrel, and he will give you very good reasons why. Ed Rayl is more speculative, while he refuses to work on them now because he doesn’t know what kind of steel they’re made of and wont mess with them. Bobby Hoyt has his limitations too, he needs to inspect the barrel closely before working on them. Green Mountain or any other barrel makers in the USA that deal in cartridge fire arms and black powder will all give you some very strong opinion backed by fact. The general consensus is they’re risky, even Loyalist arms disqualifies some of their guns their receive as unshootable. So is your risk of failure greater or lesser with an alternative e such as a Pedersoli, pedersoli’s are proofed and warranted, the risk is at greater of failure with an Indian made arm for which is not, and is unwarranted.

I understand that we can't get real hard data.... I believe I said that.
The point is, people are not taking into consideration the scale and scope of the issue.

If people acted this way about vehicle and highway safety no one would drive.

 

[FlinterNick]

I understand that we can't get real hard data.... I believe I said that.
The point is, people are not taking into consideration the scale and scope of the issue.

If people acted this way about vehicle and highway safety no one would drive.

I understand what you’re saying. The scope of the issue is quality not so much as safety. Will your Indian made barrel explode and kill you, probably not. Will you be happy with your purchase, i think most are not, i have a lot of unhappy friends and customers in regards to Indian made arms.

 

[sportster73hp]

I think context needs to be taken into consideration. Is this one known failure 1 of 10, 1 of 1,000 or 1 of 1,000,000. If the one failure is inches from my own face it wouldn’t matter. I am sure there have been failures from major manufacturers but with the risk of law suits a heavy level of overbuild is normal.
I buy surplus arms for my private collection and normally lay a heavy sandbag over the breach are and fire several rounds. My test, not scientific, just piece of mind.

 

[ChuckJonesWagon]

Not to change directions or muddy up the waters here, but last year I was working to build a flintlock that a young person or small frame person could shoot. I had a CVA percussion barrel that has been in my shop for about ten years. So, I cut the barrel down and then, since I wanted a hook breech, I cut the barrel to make one.

This was all pure luck as I could have rotated the barrel one more flat and never seen this. But take a look at the barrel occlusion that I found in the barrel. I did not use the barrel. This was a 50 cal 15\16" barrel.

 

[Commodore Swab]

I wish someone would give us some unbiased perspective on this (and other so called "safety" issues that get argued about here) and find us some data on how many of these are blowing up compared to how many are in use. It would be nice to get similar data for barrels made in the US, UK, and Europe.
I do understand that the numbers can't be 100% conclusive. Too many variables such as frequency and type of use, as well as hard to determine actual use versus sales numbers, especially for the India made guns.
But a rough idea of how common these issues are in the big picture would be good.

I typically use veteran instead of loyalist as they are domestic. There weapons come from the same builder. This would be the first failure not attributed to operator error. It is also from a different manufacturer.

I think context needs to be taken into consideration. Is this one known failure 1 of 10, 1 of 1,000 or 1 of 1,000,000. If the one failure is inches from my own face it wouldn’t matter. I am sure there have been failures from major manufacturers but with the risk of law suits a heavy level of overbuild is normal.
I buy surplus arms for my private collection and normally lay a heavy sandbag over the breach are and fire several rounds. My test, not scientific, just piece of mind.

Veteran may sell on average 1000/year. Loyalist most likely is about the same or possibly more. So in the past decade that is roughly 20,000 guns with the only failures being contributed to operator error. If you want to factor in a competing company (wrong thing to do) and consider this to be good test ignoring questions posed then the failure rate might be 1/20,000 for the past decade. Of course both have been in business much longer.

 

[sturmkatze]

Not to change directions or muddy up the waters here, but last year I was working to build a flintlock that a young person or small frame person could shoot. I had a CVA percussion barrel that has been in my shop for about ten years. So, I cut the barrel down and then, since I wanted a hook breech, I cut the barrel to make one.

This was all pure luck as I could have rotated the barrel one more flat and never seen this. But take a look at the barrel occlusion that I found in the barrel. I did not use the barrel. This was a 50 cal 15\16" barrel.

Scary. Perhaps people need to X-ray all barrels first.

 

[Rudyard]

Didn't someone on here have a post about am India made shotgun and showed the breech plugs and how he had to replace them all due to how shoddy it was made?

Well you seem to study them and find faults so you aught to know. The India made shotguns mostly made for the local trade, Do get proofed and if so will bear the 'Ashoka mark' looks like three lions you cant see the rear one .But some will find fault with anything . if you don't like them don't buy one . May I suggest .

Rudyard
Who wearies of the persistant knocking of all things Indian

 

[Frontier's]

Well you seem to study them and find faults so you aught to know. The India made shotguns mostly made for the local trade, Do get proofed and if so will bear the 'Ashoka mark' looks like three lions you cant see the rear one .But some will find fault with anything . if you don't like them don't buy one . May I suggest .

Rudyard
Who wearies of the persistant knocking of all things Indian

if you want to shoot that junk, go ahead, literally no one is stopping you.

 

[Rudyard]

if you want to shoot that junk, go ahead, literally no one is stopping you.

Ime picky with what I shoot but do believe in fair play and actualy do know what ime talking about . Rudyard

 

[shorthair]

After 54 years I’m surprised I still have all my fingers and toes. Guns are dangerous

Guns aren't dangerous careless idiots with guns are dangerous, come to think of it those people are dangerous with most anything including a voters ballot.