India Barrel Failure

[Brokennock]

I don’t see how it’s suspicious, the gun was sold in a transaction for it to sell it needed to be proofed tested, as it wasn’t. That’s their laws, not ours. Consequently a failed proof test could have an effect on the Indian gun economy in Europe for sure, but again, that’s their laws, not ours.

Right.
And no government, or private entity for that matter, has ever had to test somethings that they had an interest in seeing pass or fail. No government testing entity has ever tested anything in a manner that would effect the outcome of the test.

 

[shorthair]

Right.
And no government, or private entity for that matter, has ever had to test somethings that they had an interest in seeing pass or fail. No government testing entity has ever tested anything in a manner that would effect the outcome of the test.

Well they sure seem to either cook the books or to twist the facts to meet their preconceived incorrect theories.
The worst part is that we keep letting them get away with it.

 

[FlinterNick]

Right.
And no government, or private entity for that matter, has ever had to test somethings that they had an interest in seeing pass or fail. No government testing entity has ever tested anything in a manner that would effect the outcome of the test.

You honestly believe that tiny Central European republic the Hungarian government CIP proof house has an agenda to fail Indian made black powder arms to limit or reduce their sale in Europe or the USA ? You realize that they proof all guns, they even proof gun barrels that don’t belong to any guns ?

There are some anti gun narratives out there that are pretty wild but an agenda to specifically ban or bar Indian made guns …. Meeeh

 

[FlinterNick]

Well they sure seem to either cook the books or to twist the facts to meet their preconceived incorrect theories.
The worst part is that we keep letting them get away with it.

Whose cooking what books? What government ? This entire forum thread is about a CIP proof test in the republic of Hungary, not the USA. The USA has no proofing laws, your preconceived theory idea doesn’t hold much water here for the fella who wants to purchase a veteran arms musket or a loyalist arms musket, they’re free to do so no matter how many explode.

 

[FlinterNick]

I don't see politics involved,,, just obstinance.

The extreme if one side says they are as good quality as anything else,,, they are wrong.
The other side says they are all dangerous junk and acts like every single gun is waiting to detonate like a grenade,,, they are also wrong.

Are they as good quality as guns made elsewhere? Of course not. Does one gun failing proof testing damn the whole lot of them? It shouldn't.

As far as politics go, regarding the alleged "proof test," being evidence of anything conclusive,,,, have we never seen testing done by anyone with an agenda before?
I for one am suspicious of this supposed "proof test," something smells fishy.

I honestly don’t see where people on this forum are saying that one failed proof test means that all Indian made guns are unsafe, i here this time and time again that anti Indian made gun folk say they’re all unsafe to shoot, i don’t see where people here are making that assessment from one failed proof test. My opinion is that the failed proof test is evidence to their lack of quality, which they’re mostly very poor quality.

 

[Brokennock]

You honestly believe that tiny Central European republic the Hungarian government CIP proof house has an agenda to fail Indian made black powder arms to limit or reduce their sale in Europe or the USA ? You realize that they proof all guns, they even proof gun barrels that don’t belong to any guns ?

There are some anti gun narratives out there that are pretty wild but an agenda to specifically ban or bar Indian made guns …. Meeeh

Yes. Maybe for different reasons.
They may proof all guns, but that doesn't mean they proof them all equally. Could be just one individual. That barrel should have burst at the breach if it were simply a matter of not being able to handle the proof load. Something stinks here, but then,,, some folks are still wearing cloth covid masks alone in their car.

 

[Brokennock]

I honestly don’t see where people on this forum are saying that one failed proof test means that all Indian made guns are unsafe, i here this time and time again that anti Indian made gun folk say they’re all unsafe to shoot, i don’t see where people here are making that assessment from one failed proof test. My opinion is that the failed proof test is evidence to their lack of quality, which they’re mostly very poor quality.

Read the while thing again...
Read some of the others.

What I don't see is anyone saying the India made guns are the best in the world.

I actually sit right in the middle as far as my thoughts on these guns.
But the "all India made guns are dangerous junk," crowd I think is the worse of the two extremes as far as rhetoric and being unwilling to look at things from a realistic perspective.

 

[FlinterNick]

Read the while thing again...
Read some of the others.

What I don't see is anyone saying the India made guns are the best in the world.

I actually sit right in the middle as far as my thoughts on these guns.
But the "all India made guns are dangerous junk," crowd I think is the worse of the two extremes as far as rhetoric and being unwilling to look at things from a realistic perspective.

Who is saying that Indian made firearms are all dangerous junk ?

People saying they think they’re all junk doesn’t mean they’re unsafe. I engage in regular conversations with some of the most notable gun builders in the country, and most say they’re all junk, this doesn’t translate to an extreme belief that they’re unsafe. I’ll be seeing plenty of them in Kempton soon too.

My personal opinion for the Indian made gun is that their best uses are for the reinactor that is not a gun enthusiast and wishes to have one for the role and that’s it.

 

[FlinterNick]

Yes. Maybe for different reasons.
They may proof all guns, but that doesn't mean they proof them all equally. Could be just one individual. That barrel should have burst at the breach if it were simply a matter of not being able to handle the proof load. Something stinks here, but then,,, some folks are still wearing cloth covid masks alone in their car.

The barrel exposed where it was the weakest, it does not have to explode at the breech. Gas will go in the direction of least resistance.

The barrel likely exploded where it did because of stress embrittlement in the steel that occurred during its drilling and forging process, steel work hardens during the forging and matching process which means it probably needed to be heat treated, tempered and was not heat treated.

 

[SDSmlf]

The barrel likely exploded where it did because of stress embrittlement in the steel that occurred during its drilling and forging process, which means it probably needed to be heat treated, tempered and was not.

Always good to get an analysis from a real metallurgist that knows all the processes used in the manufacturing of barrels. Thank you.

 

[FlinterNick]

Always good to get an analysis from a real metallurgist that knows all the processes used in the manufacturing of barrels. Thank you.

Thank you, I’m not a metallurgists but i know many and have discuss this specific topic with them. They’re of the general consensus that the steel used in the barrel was probably too hard / brittle or possibly even already had a crack in it. One metallurgist i know stated that he believed the under-lug(s) if brazed or welded on with too much heat could have caused a crack any where in the barrel.

 

[Brokennock]

Who is saying that Indian made firearms are all dangerous junk ?

Have you not read these topics?

 

[FlinterNick]

Have you not read these topics?

Of course i have, most of the people calling Indian made guns dangerous junk or unsafe to shoot are the ones owning Indian made arms themselves, they make their statements out of conjecture because people such as myself reference the barrel failures as an issue. Of course Indian gun owners want it to be a non-issue, so they make statements trying to ensure themselves and others so that the public isn’t concerned about them Bering safe to shoot. “If one explodes you can’t damn them all… “well nobody who isn’t a fan of Indian made guns isn’t saying that. Most are saying they’re just not good quality. Even the person at the gun proof test stated, he realizes that most of these are safe to shoot, but people are playing Russian roulette. You’ve even got Indian gun enthusiasts on YouTube maxing out proof tests to see what it takes to explode a barrel, this is all done to reinforce their own arguments that they’re safe to shoot. Most Indian guns are safe to shoot, is what I’ve said in the past, clearly the terms ‘most’ means that not all are, well there are at least 5-7 Indian gun incidents of bursting barrels in the last decade or so that i know of.. am I damning them all… no, I’m just highlighting a statistic. As I’ve said, bursting barrels, stocks that often break, locks that often don’t work… I’m calling them junk that’s my opinion of them. Their best uses are what they’ve been used for, movie props, reenactments etc. You’re calling my view extreme, and I’m asking how is it extreme ? I’ve worked on many of these guns as have many other gun builders, and we’re entitled to offer a public opinion on this public forum.

The biggest flaw of that failed CIP proof test on the Indian made barrel is the Indian gun owners extreme statements… they must have done the test wrong, something is fishy here, they used smokeless powder, there’s a government conspiracy, there’s a Pedersoli agenda against Indian made arms… etc. these are extreme statements. Not once did they consider that the barrel was probably not safe to shoot before the test occurred.

 

[Okie Hog]

's kind of like buying a Chevy Vega and expecting Volvo quality and durability.

Exactly!!!!

i'm reminded of the CVA inline guns that were defective. CVA recalled the defective muzzleloaders.

A beloved "muzzleloader expert" teamed up with a Tulsa ambulance chaser and claimed all CVA guns were defective. The anti CVA show and lawsuits went on for many years.

A friend was present on the firing range when one shooter was badly injured. There was a container of smokeless powder on the injured shooters firing bench.

 

[camoloc]

You didn't manage to get the cat in the photo! Or is that doggie hair? Nice stain job!!

ha

could be cat, Beagle, or deer hair..............

God only knows which one !!!

camo

 

[camoloc]

Like the Chinese, I'm sure the Indian companies couldn't care less about what they sell to us dumb Americans. Why should they. If somebody is willing to buy something knowingly from a country of questionable quality control then why should said country care about its products?

From their perspective if they're selling guns that aren't vented then essentially they aren't firearms so why worry about quality control. If the company doesnt advertize or furnish instructions on how to convert the product into an operable firearm, then if the consumer decides to drill a vent and turn it into a firearm and it blows up, its on the consumers shoulders. The company isn't liable for any damage IMO. All the companys lawyers would need to prove is that the object wasn't an operable firearm when it left their factory, and the factory has absolutely no control over what the purchaser does with said object once its out of their hands.

gotta call this one out as the way I see it.

look at the long and distinguished list Access/Military Heritage has catered to and/or provided for.

do you really think anyone (or a set armorer for that matter) would put something in the hands of Mr. Depp or other actors if they thought it was a hazard???

this specific company has developed a reputation and brand name for a reason.

camo

 

[Sidney Smith]

gotta call this one out as the way I see it.

look at the long and distinguished list Access/Military Heritage has catered to and/or provided for.

do you really think anyone (or a set armorer for that matter) would put something in the hands of Mr. Depp or other actors if they thought it was a hazard???

this specific company has developed a reputation and brand name for a reason.

camo

Apples to oranges. Actors are not shooting live ammo, (well most of them arent). And aside from that I'd be willing to bet what the actors are firing are weak squib loads, just for visual effect. A shooter on a range firing a live round with a much larger powder charge, is a different story.

Hey, bottom line it's up to each individual as to whether they trust the quality of a firearm thats being produced in a country of known inferiority, or not.

 

[camoloc]

Apples to oranges. Actors are not shooting live ammo, (well most if them arent). And aside from that I'd be willing to bet what the actors are firing are weak squib loads, just for visual effect. A shooter on a range firing a live round with a much larger powder charge, is a different story.

Hey, bottom line it's up to each individual as to whether they trust the quality of a firearm thats being produced in a country of known inferiority, or not.

guess we can agree to disagree........and that's fair.

I just dislike the inferior statement. I know of no other vendors that can provide an example of what I have ended up with (or other replicas as well) at a fair price.

the piece I have is nice. I've pushed some hefty loads through it. I've trusted it enough to let my grandkids fire it.

either way it works for me......and the company has filled a niche market that not many others (if any????) compete in.

camo

 

[FlinterNick]

gotta call this one out as the way I see it.

look at the long and distinguished list Access/Military Heritage has catered to and/or provided for.

do you really think anyone (or a set armorer for that matter) would put something in the hands of Mr. Depp or other actors if they thought it was a hazard???

this specific company has developed a reputation and brand name for a reason.

camo

Yes i do think than an armor in Hollywood would put something in someone’s hands that is defective.

Brandon Lee … dead, Alec Baldwin just got off a manslaughter charge, countless other stuntmen and secondaries that have no famous names have died in prop gun accidents or have been seriously injured.

Heck even a stuntman was killed by a grizzly bear once…. You seriously are going to trust Hollywood as being an example of using the best and safest ?!

And the company military heritage is not liable for any damages their firearms cause in Hollywood, they only thing they really get credit for is providing a product… everything else is on the producers of the films.

 

[camoloc]

Yes i do think than an armor in Hollywood would put something in someone’s hands that is defective.

Brandon Lee … dead, Alec Baldwin just got off a manslaughter charge, countless other stuntmen and secondaries that have no famous names have died in prop gun accidents or have been seriously injured.

Heck even a stuntman was killed by a grizzly bear once…. You seriously are going to trust Hollywood as being an example of using the best and safest ?!

And the company military heritage is not liable for any damages their firearms cause in Hollywood, they only thing they really get credit for is providing a product… everything else is on the producers of the films.

lol

okay look at the list of other buyers on that page......

Pentagon?????

now those Outlander lads across the pond have to have it right now !!!!

guess it's up to us to deem safe and usable then......no SAAMI specs on this !!!!

camo