India Barrel Failure

[tenngun]

That’s a bit more challenging than you would expect there’s a lot of sources with a lot of different information. I do know there are very reputable gun builders from India that do use high-quality steals, but the products are not cheap and I believe that they can’t sell beyond the borders of India, other than that, the only thing I can come across is whatever military heritage is quoted.
But it’s not so much the actual steel that concerned me the most it’s that they’re forged drawn over a mandrel by hand by two guys kneeling on a dirt floor with a hammer and anvil. I have seen people do that in seminars with wrought iron but wrought iron is very easy to work with. I just don’t the process using steel. It’s just very difficult to find in high grade. If the barrels were drilled from solid stock and not flanged breeched I’d have a lot more positives

Isn’t it amazing the Brits conqured the world with barrels made like that
Would thier work be better if they had cement floors?
Maybe steel toed shoes would make them safer

 

[sussexmuzllodr]

Do you honestly think that has not already been done?

I know it,s done. Thats the Point.

 

[tenngun]

Steel comes in all sorts of grades, and one can do a job better than another.
What’s a gun barrel need to do? What’s its job?
1) hold the force of the explosion while the projectile exits
2) send projectiles in one direction consistently shot to shot
So x maker has better steel in a barrel then y maker. Ys barrel holds the charge and sends it in the same direction each shot. How is Xs barrel better
If I may, do you think a Green Mountain is a better barrel then a 1970s CVA? Well no doubt abut it
Except boys with 1970s Kentucky rifle by CVA were shooting center, holding the same charges as custom made.
So exactly how were they better?
Get a loyalist, perdisoli, and original bess together and explain to me which of the two is closer to the original
Load them both with 200 grains one f and wadded ball and explain how one is safer or more accurate
Well one’s better because the makers had shoes on?

 

[FlinterNick]

Isn’t it amazing the Brits conqured the world with barrels made like that
Would thier work be better if they had cement floors?
Maybe steel toed shoes would make them safer

I don’t think that you fully understand the work they did to make those barrels, I’m not going to explain it in details anymore since it has already enflamed arguments.

And no they did not sit on dirt floors, and if they had to work with steel as adverse to wrought iron, they’re practices would not be the same as Indian barrel makers.

Indian barrels are just not made the same as 18th century brown Bess barrels or the barrels Wallace Gustler made, I have a few original French and Bess barrels here in my collection, comparing them to Indian made barrels is just unfounded.

 

[FlinterNick]

Steel comes in all sorts of grades, and one can do a job better than another.
What’s a gun barrel need to do? What’s its job?
1) hold the force of the explosion while the projectile exits
2) send projectiles in one direction consistently shot to shot
So x maker has better steel in a barrel then y maker. Ys barrel holds the charge and sends it in the same direction each shot. How is Xs barrel better
If I may, do you think a Green Mountain is a better barrel then a 1970s CVA? Well no doubt abut it
Except boys with 1970s Kentucky rifle by CVA were shooting center, holding the same charges as custom made.
So exactly how were they better?
Get a loyalist, perdisoli, and original bess together and explain to me which of the two is closer to the original
Load them both with 200 grains one f and wadded ball and explain how one is safer or more accurate
Well one’s better because the makers had shoes on?

Well that’s fairly easy, 1. Pedersoli barrels are ‘closer’ in authenticity, and 2. Pedersoli barres are proofed.

Lastly Pedersoli barrels are cut on a massive CNC lathe from ordinance grade steel. I’m pretty sure there is a video of this on YouTube.

Are Pedersoli barrels better, yes the facts say so.

 

[Commodore Swab]

Just to throw a monkey wrench into the machinery. . .

All this talk of various steel why isn't brass or bronze mentioned? Should we be comparing original brass barrels to modern India guns?

After all there are thousands of blunderbusses done in brass and steel firing ball not shot. If you think fools do stupid stuff with a musket imagine the same fool with a brass blunderbuss.

Once again no failures.

 

[Clark Badgett]

Just to throw a monkey wrench into the machinery. . .

All this talk of various steel why isn't brass or bronze mentioned? Should we be comparing original brass barrels to modern India guns?

After all there are thousands of blunderbusses done in brass and steel firing ball not shot. If you think fools do stupid stuff with a musket imagine the same fool with a brass blunderbuss.

Once again no failures.

Barrels weren’t made of brass. They were bronze. Different alloy.

 

[Commodore Swab]

Barrels weren’t made of brass. They were bronze. Different alloy.

Ok, I guess the original French (1770's) tapered octagon brass barrel pistol doesn't exist. I suppose all thos boxlocks are bronze as well? Casting bronze and brass I am aware of the differences.

 

[Relic shooter]

I read Cap and Balls article on the India made gun that malfunctioned in the Hungarian proof house. He stated that they had no idea what metal or method was used in the manufacturing process. For whatever it’s worth, Military Heritage states that their barrels are “made of tempered seamless gun steel (type BS970 no.080M40.” I don’t know what that is but I assume it’s good steel. My opinion is that because these are made as non firing replicas, the manufacturer has no obligation to test the material or the final product. We all know what problems Remington had with heat treating when it was done by eye. If you drill the touch hole, you need to test it or “proof it” with stronger than normal loads before you shoulder it.

There are certainly better options out there for some of the reproductions, but where else are you going to find dog locks?

Rob the reason India mfg muzzleloaders are made non-firing is strictly political, it's a third world dictatorship.
Not drilling the touch hole is a loophole that provides employment opportunities for these craftsmen.
As you state, these craftsmen produce some types of firearms not available elsewhere.

All the negative focus on India mfg. muzzleloaders makes one think it might be promoted by Italian replica arms competitors ?

 

[FlinterNick]

Rob the reason India mfg muzzleloaders are made non-firing is strictly political, it's a third world dictatorship.
Not drilling the touch hole is a loophole that provides employment opportunities for these craftsmen.
As you state, these craftsmen produce some types of firearms not available elsewhere.

All the negative focus on India mfg. muzzleloaders makes one think it might be promoted by Italian replica arms competitors ?

India is a dictatorship? I thought it the worlds most populated democracy..

 

[tenngun]

Well that’s fairly easy, 1. Pedersoli barrels are ‘closer’ in authenticity, and 2. Pedersoli barres are proofed.

Lastly Pedersoli barrels are cut on a massive CNC lathe from ordinance grade steel. I’m pretty sure there is a video of this on YouTube.

Are Pedersoli barrels better, yes the facts say so.

How are they better? Do they shoot straighter? No
Are they safer?
No, neither blows up
Are they prettier, maybe, but that’s the eye of the beholder

 

[Clark Badgett]

Ok, I guess the original French (1770's) tapered octagon brass barrel pistol doesn't exist. I suppose all thos boxlocks are bronze as well? Casting bronze and brass I am aware of the differences.

Yes, they are bronze. You know, that metal we’ve been working with since the BRONZE age.

 

[Frontier's]

Unfollowing thread

 

[Commodore Swab]

Yes, they are bronze. You know, that metal we’ve been working with since the BRONZE age.

Sorry I must be confused and here's why.

In general bronze will go brown with age while brass stays more yellow. A good indication example is a bronze cannon and brass shell casing. Of course bronze can be many different colors depending on the percentage of metals involved. For example nickles are in fact bronze with a higher nickel content making them more silver in color. Once again in general brass will have zinc but not always.

I refered to the common boxlocks being brass rather than bronze as they have more in common with common brass than bronze. My French pistol uses the same material for the barrel as the rest of the hardware. With something like a bronze barrel say blunderbuss it is easy to see how the barrel is a different color and ages different than other brass hardware on the gun. I hope this clears up my statement.

Getting back on topic whether or not originals are brass or bronze becomes irrelevant as we know the India barrels are brass and don't blow up.

Discussing whether brass or bronze is stronger is probably best left for another topic.

 

[Clark Badgett]

Sorry I must be confused and here's why.

In general bronze will go brown with age while brass stays more yellow. A good indication example is a bronze cannon and brass shell casing. Of course bronze can be many different colors depending on the percentage of metals involved. For example nickles are in fact bronze with a higher nickel content making them more silver in color. Once again in general brass will have zinc but not always.

I refered to the common boxlocks being brass rather than bronze as they have more in common with common brass than bronze. My French pistol uses the same material for the barrel as the rest of the hardware. With something like a bronze barrel say blunderbuss it is easy to see how the barrel is a different color and ages different than other brass hardware on the gun. I hope this clears up my statement.

Getting back on topic whether or not originals are brass or bronze becomes irrelevant as we know the India barrels are brass and don't blow up.

Discussing whether brass or bronze is stronger is probably best left for another topic.

Whether brass or bronze is stronger has been settled for at least 8000 years.

 

[TNGhost]

Whether brass or bronze is stronger has been settled for at least 8000 years.

Yep, simple, no lengthy discussion needed.

Bronze is a copper/tin alloy with greater tensile strength and hardness making it suitable for things like tools.

Brass is a copper/zinc alloy with greater corrosion resistance and ductility, making it suitable for things like cartridge cases.

Everything you need to know about bronze and brass:

https://industrialmetalservice.com/metal-university/the-difference-between-brass-and-bronze/#:~:text=Bronze and brass are the metal alloys of,for various electrical applications, including enhanced corrosion resistance.

Oh, and Indian guns rock.

 

[sturmkatze]

More name calling. So just let it go? Let what go? Your buddy Nick is the one making false claims and accusations. Accusations like his hurt people's businesses, it's called slander.

I don’t think he is. And guess what, you make sure to keep this going.

 

[sturmkatze]

I would like to see a barrel you made. Perhaps you mean you know the steel of barrels you have bought?

And there you go again.

 

[sturmkatze]

I know from what kind of steel my barrels are made, may the force be with you.

Nick, he has fear. Fear is the path to the Dark Side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.

 

[Commodore Swab]

I don’t think he is. And guess what, you make sure to keep this going.

I gave him a chance to back up his claims and he couldn't.

And there you go again.

I would legitimately like to see his work, there are enough barrel makers out there that I stick to blunderbusses and cannons rather fowlers and rifles. As many have a good bit of a wait if his work is good I may be able to direct others to him. However, when he talks about lathe turning a queen anne it gives me reason to doubt so I ask for more information.