India-made flintlocks

[cebusey]

Like anything it depends on whose buying it.

I know a little more detail about some historical firearms than someone who does not. So, when I see an Indian Made Brown Bess, Or Charleville or Baker Rifle all i really see is a mess.

Incorrect shaping of the entire gun and its components.

Incorrect wood, Teak and South Asian Rosewood is just way too hard and closed grained for gunstocks.

Locks often are made poorly and require tuning and reworking to shape the parts.

DOM (drawn over mandrel) tubing is not a type of barrel design I think one should not consider of the highest quality, for a few reasons. it’s basically a sheet of steel hammered into a tube and then welded. The welding that closes the seam needs to be done to perfection or the gun could fail at the breech or at the muzzle. While the originals were made this way, they were done with extensive proof testing, as there was an actual failure rate, not all barrels made it to the field. And on Indian guns….. the vent holes are not even drilled.

FYI - as far as touch holes being drilled and being proofed - it depends upon from you buy it. Not all Indian or Italian, Spanish etc come from the same shop.
I have an original flintlock pistol circa made in India for the East India company - it uses rosewood. It by the way was made by a shop the East India company had Manton setup. It even features a captured ramrod before Tower started using them. Is it graceless in form - yes, functional absolutely and I even shoot it occasionally. We often forget the Asian side of history. Would this pistol be proper for a Waterloo or 1812 reinactor - no. But it WAS there for real in the the British Empire's Asian Realms in the late 18th or Early 19th century.

 

[Surfinator58]

Interesting post! I didn't know HP was out of business, I'd heard that name my whole life!

Yes after more than 80 years serving the military police and Industrial community they closed just a couple of years ago... this particular study was done on behalf of a re-enactor who wanted to sue the manufacturer the metal was found to be high quality Steel and the only reason it failed was lack of maintenance and a barrel obstruction

 

[user 49399]

you got it, paid for it, so keep it. I did not know that they made squirrel caliber guns? is it a 32-or a 36 CAL, riffled? as stated it is a beauty!!

It’s a .62 caliber smooth bore.

 

[FlinterNick]

FYI - as far as touch holes being drilled and being proofed - it depends upon from you buy it. Not all Indian or Italian, Spanish etc come from the same shop.
I have an original flintlock pistol circa made in India for the East India company - it uses rosewood. It by the way was made by a shop the East India company had Manton setup. It even features a captured ramrod before Tower started using them. Is it graceless in form - yes, functional absolutely and I even shoot it occasionally. We often forget the Asian side of history. Would this pistol be proper for a Waterloo or 1812 reinactor - no. But it WAS there for real in the the British Empire's Asian Realms in the late 18th or Early 19th century.

I’ve never heard of an East Indian Brown Bess stocked in Rosewood, the East India company had some pretty strict quality requirements and I’m not positive but pretty sure they had to follow ordnance rules for military arms proofed by the British Government.

Its possible that’s a restock of some type. I know IMA uses some cheap East Indian exotic oak on their restocking project guns because its what they have in surplus.

Rosewood from my experiences is an extremely hard closed grained wood is too hard and needs to be well conditioned before staining and finishing.

I’m pretty sure Indian made arms are shipped to Europe and the USA without their touch holes drilled as way of circumventing regulations in India, either way in my opinion its not a good practice as it is very much the most critical part of the gun, a bad touch hole on a DOM barrel could lead to many potential problems including a burst barrel. US Dealers may drill the touch hole but are now required to follow firearms regulations once they do but a company such as the discriminating general will not because they dont consider themselves a firearms dealer.

 

[ronaldrothb49]

Because... India has really strict gin control laws and they have to do this to get around them. Period.

The companies selling these here are located in the U.S.A.

 

[springfield art]

All guns can be labeled as junk. Some say Indian guns use shoddy workmanship and “non firearms spec” DOM tubing for barrels. Some say American “leaded steel” barrels are unsafe too. Some castigate Spanish guns or some of the Japanese guns as all junk. I’ve personally seen Italian made colt copies that make anything coming out of India look like they were hand finished by a master.


The reality is, Indian guns are safe but the ones we see are usually not of the best fit and finish, because they’re made to a price (and it’s a low one) and are inconsistent from supplier to supplier (because they’re essentially handmade and to differing requirements.) Indian or Italian will both be decidedly inferior to a well-tuned American custom build.

Agreed.

 

[tenngun]

Good video on you tube Bang Bang channel
In this one it’s a NWG, he does several others. Locks are fast, they shoot well, they did a little refinish and looks to me like they have guns to be proud of

 

[user 49399]

For those who might be interested, here’s some pictures of my India made .62 caliber Fusil de Chasse. It belonged to at least two actors at Martins Station before I got it so it’s been in a few raids. I’ve done some squirrel hunting and target shooting with it and it has always worked just fine.

 

[user 49399]

Here’s some more.

 

[springfield art]

Good video on you tube Bang Bang channel
In this one it’s a NWG, he does several others. Locks are fast, they shoot well, they did a little refinish and looks to me like they have guns to be proud ofView attachment 146320

I've gotten good at refinishing; I'd do that to one if I decide to buy Indian.

 

[springfield art]

There is one manufacturer that makes very fine quality blackpowder firearms, but those guns usually go into the European markets and almost never come to the USA. I’ve seen a couple of these guns on YouTube videos, hanging on walls in the background. I bought one, years ago on GunBroker. I knew the gun was India Made when I bought it…almost no bidding against me…such a nice solid gun when it arrived.

I’ll post an image in a couple days…

Interesting!

 

[FlinterNick]

i often seen Indian gun collectors and Reinactors defending the integrity of their decision …. This is abundantly clear… but to come and say they’re just as good as an Italian made product or custom gun is foolish conjecture.

 

[FlinterNick]

Here’s some more.View attachment 146337View attachment 146338View attachment 146339View attachment 146340View attachment 146341View attachment 146342

Bad inletting and wood to metal fit and way oversized. The webbing between the barrel and rammer channel likes almost an inch possibly a little less. That’s a lot of extra wood

 

[user 49399]

i often seen Indian gun collectors and Reinactors defending the integrity of their decision …. This is abundantly clear… but to come and say they’re just as good as an Italian made product or custom gun is foolish conjecture.

I agree with you that it’s not as good as an Italian made product such as Pedersoli or even Traditions and definitely not a Kibler or other such gun. But it will shoot. That’s as far as I will give it good marks. I offered these pictures for anyone interested who may have never seen one up close. I got it cheap on a trade and that’s why I have it. But,,,,,if someone wanted to trade me a Thompson Center for it,,,,well just pm me

 

[Surfinator58]

For those who might be interested, here’s some pictures of my India made .62 caliber Fusil de Chasse. It belonged to at least two actors at Martins Station before I got it so it’s been in a few raids. I’ve done some squirrel hunting and target shooting with it and it has always worked just fine. View attachment 146321View attachment 146322View attachment 146328View attachment 146334View attachment 146335

It has a nice patina good lookin gun

 

[Zapadach]

Italian made guns are orders of magnitude farther up the quality ladder than anything coming out of India. There is no comparison here.

If all a person can afford is an India made gun, ok. I can't fault someone for living within their means. However, if you can afford more, then you'd be a fool not to buy something better. To me India made means substandard junk, period. No one will convince me otherwise. A person can make attempts to promote India made, however, they are simply kidding themselves. When you're in a hobby a while, you get to know what is good, and what is bad, and what to stay away from. In my opinion, India made falls into the two latter categories.

If one could or would be willing to spend more money, an Italian replica offers not much more for your money. If money was not an issue, an original would be the way to go.

 

[Surfinator58]

If one could or would be willing to spend more money, an Italian replica offers not much more for your money. If money was not an issue, an original would be the way to go.

The only problem with Italian guns is defarbing all the barrel writing and Italian proofs along with the plastic finish they use that is tough to remove after that you have a decent gun for reenacting

 

[Steve Martin]

The Indian gun makers are required to make the statement that the guns are for display purposes only or they could never get them imported into many countries without a huge amount of expensive paperwork and specific firearms related regulations. Likewise they can't drill the vent hole and make the "replica" a working firearm and still be able to easily (read inexpensively), import them into most other countries. I have personally had to do work on Pedersoli flintlocks to get them working well, just as I have flintlocks made in India. When I first got into shooting flintlocks and money was tight, I was actually pretty grateful those "India guns" were available!

 

[Rudyard]

Because... India has really strict gin control laws and they have to do this to get around them. Period.

India used to have a gin control ,well any alchol you had to get a licour permit on arrival not that I indulged . And Yes I am being silly over the misprint .The UK Firearms regulations where maybe a 1/4" thick the Indian one was about an inch or more and still they got round it .A few' Teeps' in the right place some times helped . Rudyard

 

[Tumbledown]

I’ve never heard of an East Indian Brown Bess stocked in Rosewood, the East India company had some pretty strict quality requirements and I’m not positive but pretty sure they had to follow ordnance rules for military arms proofed by the British Government.

He didn't say it was a Brown Bess.