India-made flintlocks

[Surfinator58]

Kit Ravenshear does good work correcting the markings that are incorrect along with correct fittings like the longer tang on buttstock to name just a few

 

[Surfinator58]

Sorry I don't know how my post was separated from the discussion on Italian flintlocks by pedersoli I was adding that kit ravenscheer does a good job correcting all the incorrect information like the date ,modern markings, and plastic coated stock to make the Italian guns more suitable for reenacting that's the nice thing about India made guns they are generally closer copies of original firearms complete with Maker's Marks dates and other details

 

[toot]

Yes, and for decades Detroit made cars that were basic garbage, poor workmanship, and fell apart. Made in USA guarantees nothing.

yes the ones made on FRIDAY & MONDAY AM.!!

 

[FlinterNick]

Sorry I don't know how my post was separated from the discussion on Italian flintlocks by pedersoli I was adding that kit ravenscheer does a good job correcting all the incorrect information like the date ,modern markings, and plastic coated stock to make the Italian guns more suitable for reenacting that's the nice thing about India made guns they are generally closer copies of original firearms complete with Maker's Marks dates and other details

Most gunmakers won’t touch an Indian made musket bc of cost of the work. Not sure if Kit would have, I know he worked on miroku and Pedersoli muskets. The advent of Indian made muskets may have been after his time.

 

[Snake Pleskin]

Like anything else today, yo can find good & bad examples. Some of the things made in India work fine and show detail & craftmanship, other items not so much. I can remember back when "made in japan" was a sign of junk! Today, no one calls Japanese products junk unless they are prejudiced. They make cameras, optical goods, firearms', cars, motorcycles etc that many consider best in class. Things change.

 

[FlinterNick]

He didn't say it was a Brown Bess.

My mistake, I read the tower marks assumed it was a Bess.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

For those who might be interested, here’s some pictures of my India made .62 caliber Fusil de Chasse. It belonged to at least two actors at Martins Station before I got it so it’s been in a few raids. I’ve done some squirrel hunting and target shooting with it and it has always worked just fine. View attachment 146321View attachment 146322View attachment 146328View attachment 146334View attachment 146335

He didn't say it was a Brown Bess.

Doesn't matter. They're all stocked in the same wood.

 

[sturmkatze]

Yes after more than 80 years serving the military police and Industrial community they closed just a couple of years ago... this particular study was done on behalf of a re-enactor who wanted to sue the manufacturer the metal was found to be high quality Steel and the only reason it failed was lack of maintenance and a barrel obstruction

I thought it was done by a Middlesex due to that and showed, as you said. If it's the Middlesex report, it's posted on their website.

 

[sturmkatze]

The companies selling these here are located in the U.S.A.

But they're MANUFACTURED in India and that's why. Indian gun control laws.

 

[hawkeye2]

Kit Ravenshear does good work correcting the markings that are incorrect along with correct fittings like the longer tang on buttstock to name just a few

He did, Kit passed away in 1998.

 

[sturmkatze]

i often seen Indian gun collectors and Reinactors defending the integrity of their decision …. This is abundantly clear… but to come and say they’re just as good as an Italian made product or custom gun is foolish conjecture.

They are different. And, especially of late, have we heard people -- craftsmen like Dave, talk of the Italians quality choking now. Perhaps due to covid and so many older craftsmen dying, they are selling seconds from their warehouses? I've seen it said.

Reenactors need a gun. Most are poor. The vast majority cannot afford a $2000+ gun. Do I think a custom is better? Yes. My friend Charles Starks rebuilt a gun for me that fits and is a beauty to behold and a gem to shoot. Do I think the average young guy can do this? No. Especially when buying their kit. I don't have an answer for you.

 

[FlinterNick]

They are different. And, especially of late, have we heard people -- craftsmen like Dave, talk of the Italians quality choking now. Perhaps due to covid and so many older craftsmen dying, they are selling seconds from their warehouses? I've seen it said.

Reenactors need a gun. Most are poor. The vast majority cannot afford a $2000+ gun. Do I think a custom is better? Yes. My friend Charles Starks rebuilt a gun for me that fits and is a beauty to behold and a gem to shoot. Do I think the average young guy can do this? No. Especially when buying their kit. I don't have an answer for you.

Majority of the members of my group have pederslli Brown Bess muskets, miroku Bess’s or Miroku Charleville’s, i think we have many 3-4 Indian made muskets in our ranks and of all of them have failed at one time or another. In fact the only one’s I’ve had to repair are Indian made muskets and its always a poor performing lock. The only pedersoli bess lock I’ve ever had to work on was a first generation pedersoli bess, and its mainspring was hand made so I had to fit a different mainspring.

When it comes to authenticity pedersoli Bess’s don’t have it, period. When I see a pedersoli bess, I don’t see a second model Brown Bess, I see a pedersoli Brown Bess, period I don’t try to spend good cash on making it something it will never be without a massive investment over its cost basis.

However, the quality of a pedersoli bess (or charleville or even their Austrian flintlock musket), are better quality. The lock is better, the stock (if assembled right) is better, the barrel is a fine barrel and a pedersoli will almost always resell at a price that is of an appropriate measurement to its basis. They’re just better made.

I’m not arguing that people shouldn’t buy an Indian made musket, but to say their top quality vs an american or Italian made gun is just a poor opinion.

And I’m not saying all pedersoli muskets are genuinely good products, every now and then a bad product is produced, I’ve seen three or four pedersoli Bess’s with poor assemblies and a failures, but theres that warranty too, from the distributor as well as the manufacturer, warranties are fact that show a company believes in its products.

I always direct people to the folks at loyalist arms for Indian made muskets simply because they stand by their product. A warranty or guarantee from Middlesex or Military Heritage or Veteran arms isn’t worth the pledges they make.

 

[FlinterNick]

I thought it was done by a Middlesex due to that and showed, as you said. If it's the Middlesex report, it's posted on their website.

I remember this report and i knew the person’s reenactment group.

Its a DOM barrel, high quality steel really doesnt’ matter when the welding is not done right.

Yes the gun was not cared for very well, this was clear. However it never should have blown out they way it did, especially with no ramming of paper wadding and only blank powder.

The pictures of the guns how that it unsealed from the welded somewhat beneath the touch hole area. My guess is some was wrong in the breech, vent and weld area that caused it to have low tolerance with the bad care being a factor too. However had the musket been fire with actual shot it could have been much worse.

 

[cebusey]

I’ve never heard of an East Indian Brown Bess stocked in Rosewood, the East India company had some pretty strict quality requirements and I’m not positive but pretty sure they had to follow ordnance rules for military arms proofed by the British Government.

Its possible that’s a restock of some type. I know IMA uses some cheap East Indian exotic oak on their restocking project guns because its what they have in surplus.

Rosewood from my experiences is an extremely hard closed grained wood is too hard and needs to be well conditioned before staining and finishing.

I’m pretty sure Indian made arms are shipped to Europe and the USA without their touch holes drilled as way of circumventing regulations in India, either way in my opinion its not a good practice as it is very much the most critical part of the gun, a bad touch hole on a DOM barrel could lead to many potential problems including a burst barrel. US Dealers may drill the touch hole but are now required to follow firearms regulations once they do but a company such as the discriminating general will not because they dont consider themselves a firearms dealer.

As to using rosewood - it is a pistol and not a bess and I could be mistaken about it being rosewood - walnut or oak it ain't. Nor did it come from IMA but was a family piece passed down from father to son and it has been in my care for over 20 years. There are no Nepal markings. There is a rampant Lion mark on the lock. Could it have been restocked sometime in it's history- I can't say though if it was, it was done a long time ago. Overall it shows gentle usage over time with it's age showing primarily in a weakening mainspring -though it still throws a reasonable shower of sparks.

 

[springfield art]

The only problem with Italian guns is defarbing all the barrel writing and Italian proofs along with the plastic finish they use that is tough to remove after that you have a decent gun for reenacting

I've removed the plastic finish from at least 3 or 4 guns using that spray (or brush) orange paint remover. You have to do 2 or 3 times to get all off, but it works.

 

[springfield art]

I remember this report and i knew the person’s reenactment group.

Its a DOM barrel, high quality steel really doesnt’ matter when the welding is done right.

Yes the gun was not cared for very well, this was clear. However it never should have blown out they way it did, especially with no ramming of paper wadding and only blank powder.

The pictures of the guns how that it unsealed from the welded somewhat beneath the touch hole area. My guess is some was wrong in the breech, vent and weld area that caused it to have low tolerance with the bad care being a factor too. However had the musket been fire with actual shot it could have been much worse.

Perhaps just a bad job right from the start, defective from the beginning.

 

[Texas Gil]

I wonder how many members have India made muskets in their collection and would they buy another India made musket? Let’s see what the consensus is?

 

[Rock Home Isle]

I started an India Musket Pol in general topics

 

[Rudyard]

Kit Ravenshear does good work correcting the markings that are incorrect along with correct fittings like the longer tang on buttstock to name just a few

Kit Ravenshear has been dead over twenty years . But yes he Did do that stuff I ended up with parts he replaced by his new bigger parts .
Rudyard

 

[Tumbledown]

Doesn't matter. They're all stocked in the same wood.

It does matter, because he was talking about an original pistol, not a repro of any any sort. He was citing a period example.

"I have an original flintlock pistol circa made in India for the East India company - it uses rosewood. It by the way was made by a shop the East India company had Manton setup."