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Russ T Frizzen said:
runnball said:
Yes these guns can be considered as kits in the white and should not be considered unless you are willing to work on them.
Are these guns advertised as "kits in the white" or as ready to use firearms? False advertising is akin to fraud isn't it?


Right there you hit the nail on the head. Referencing my experience at Middlesex Village Trading Co. these muskets are sold as fully functioning, ready to shoot muskets right out of the box.

Further more, Pete doesn't say you HAVE or SHOULD proof them. He claims their breech plugs are threaded and tight, and that they are made out of the same stuff and made the same way as what he calls "the big names," which I assume mean Armi Sport, Euroarms, Pedersoli, Traditons, etc. In my case it fails on all counts of his advertisement. The plug wasn't tight, the barrel is rough and exteriorly is no where near as smooth as my repro Italian.69 Model 1842 (that has seen considerable field use), and if the plug was made tight before he shipped it then the materials and workmanship wasn't as good as he claimed.

Then speaking of false advertisement, what about advertising a musket as being a replica of a certain model but making it look no where like the musket or even approximating its dimensions. All the while flaunting about how you want "accurate reproductions" and only make "authentic copies of originals."

Further, he claims they warranty the locks for life, provided you haven't altered them. Based on my emails with him, if you tighten a screw to keep it from hanging up, that's altering it. So the only way the thing is actually warrantied is if you never touch it. Or in my case, since it would start hanging up every time it was removed from the stock, you would have to send the lock in to him every time you clean it. Also based on my experience, if you send something in to be fixed or replaced YOU have to pay the shipping. Even if the item is defective.
 
Here I go like a broken record..

I LOVE my muskets that were built from Loyalist "specials" the locks are AWESOME and have yet to fail me.
I proofed every piece with stout loads and have shot hundreds of ball/shot and blanks from em. The wood is all the picture of sublimity after my heafty sculpting rework and magic staining/oiling.

The only reason I have a piedersoli is because dixie had a big sale on bess kits last summer and the huge support most give them on the forum,Now my opinion of piedersoli is lower then the indian guns I have handeled and shot.

Recently bought a old navy arms charleville kit and comparing its quality components to the piedersolis make the piedersoli look bad, VERY bad and I am only 1/4 done the charleville.

Truly I am very thankful my first musket was NOT my piedersoli if it was I might not be shooting flintlocks at all.

Maybe in a year or 2 after I set aside a few hundred dollars I can get the piedersoli's barell breach completely redone to make it a good musket,some stouter lock springs etc...

until then -I am guaranteed it wont blow up- as it just sits in the gun safe gathering dust,

Its a damn shame as I put many hours into its only redeeming point "in my opinion" the european walnut stock and she looks dandy.


I know how it feels to feel as though you have spent your cash on a inferior product, I only wish I spent that cash I spent on the piedersoli on a sitting fox or chambers kit.

I may have been lucky with the indian guns so far, but that luck is overshadowed by my experience with a supposedly "high quality" company. After a while when I can afford another I am going with a chambers or sittingfox kit.

But all that said ....hind sight is ALWAYS 20/20
Cheers
Rob
 
Morning Gents,

Sorry to be so long with the reply to your questions. I learned a lesson the hard way last night when I spent about an hour typing your answer and then lost it when the Forum’s server closed.

I have just had good luck with the MVTC products and folks. I bought my first two in the mid 90’s. Another, about 1998 and the last two months ago. Three pistols including the Murdoch, brass barreled blunderbuss pistol and heavy British Dragoon and the brass blunderbuss (in that order). All touch holes are correctly sized and placed. None pass through the breech plug. The springs are stronger than those on any of my Pedersoli guns. And I have shot them all with hundreds of loads. I clean them all with liquid solvent and water in my downstairs kitchen and so know that all breech plugs are water and air tight. They all look new, in fact too new and exhibit only one small change from firing. The Murdoch has a very slightly loose frizzen that needs to be shimmed. Still works though, is pretty accurate and fires 18 out of twenty times.

I only had two problems ever with a MVTC product. One frizzen arrived unhardened. I could have done it but I didn’t know Pete back then so I called him to put it right. He did, immediately and was very nice about it. That assurance sparked my next purchases. I later received a little pistol with a brass barrel and it threw balls randomly left, right, up or down in about an eight foot area at 25 feet. I had never seen this at the time and was amazed that there was no consistency at all to the shots. I cleaned and ran a searcher down the little short barrel and found a small dished out area near the muzzle where the boring device? Had apparently touched on the way out of the bore. When a sprue or patch hit that spot, it grabbed and launched the ball randomly depending on how it caught. I called Pete and discussed it with him. He offered to replace it and for safety sake really wanted me to send it back, but I decided it was something I could fix myself and later did when I found the time. I built a small expanding mandrel and a slow hand lathe which successfully polished the bore neatly removing the pit and increasing the windage by 2/100ths of an inch. I polished the bore, searched the stock for voids (artillerist coming through) checked the breech plug and proofed with double ball and powder. Then re-polished and searched. No problems. I now use about 40 grains of ffg, had to move to a .51 round ball and it shoots a 20” pattern at 50 feet consistently. One cool thing about that little gun, with some Texas flints I found and a friend of mine knapped it’s never misfired in hundreds of shots. Of course probably will this weekend since I said that.

Now what’s moderate? I was in a mock battle at Ft. King George in 1986 and the guy next to me was firing blanks that literally shook the ground. Since he stood next to me while doing it, and I was afraid his chamber was going to explode, I asked how many grains he was using of the State’s powder (free to us). His response was 250 ”“ 300 grains of ffg. In a Japanese 3rd model Brown Bess. To me, this is not responsible or moderate. My group of 25 was using 110 grains of FFG in blanks and the reports were adequate and in fact had that faintly hollow pipe thunk sound like a heavy musket firing ball usually does. Rifle “crack” really does not belong in a 74 musket and signals really unsafe chamber pressures. Usually with blanks I use an amount of powder equal to the caliber of the gun and work up slightly to get the required report. It depends on whether or not the event allows ramming, wadding (or even a ramrod on the field), how many shots you’ll get to take from one gun etc. I have worked out formulas for a few movies I helped with from time to time. For round ball and shot I find most people load too much powder for the job at hand. One thing old timers knew well was that powder and shot were expensive and it could cost your life if it ran out. So I load the smallest charges that will get the job done. If I’m punching paper at 50 feet with a .490 round ball I may only load 25 grains of ffg. If I’m hunting with my Bess (pedersoli) I’ll use 630 grains of No. 7 birdshot on 70 grains of ffg for small game and for deer might use a .715 with patch on 100 grains. I have been experimenting successfully with fg loads in my three large bore muskets for about a year and have increased accuracy, lowered recoil and seem to have less fouling. Anyway, from my artillery days I own a good supply of unused fg and black powder is hard to find where I live.

Historically, the first factory made firearms in bulk came from France in the 1790’s during the “Wars of the Revolution” when regardless of quality the French Govt. had to get lots of muskets quick. The last thing I like about the MVTC guns is that they are hand made and look it. They (or at least mine) don’t have modern markings of any kind on them. They are what they are, handmade guns, of probably similar quality and metallurgy of many originals. I like them but prudence with all guns and black powder specifically can be the difference between a fun afternoon and considerable grief and I have a family, children and grandchildren so I don’t tempt fate with mine.
 
The LONG wait . You CAN get a hand made domestic product if you want to pay a lot and wait for your order .
I suspect the wait is period correct for the flintlock era .
 
Your post lines up with about 80% of what I have read of people who own Pete's Besses and other guns he has had for a long time.

I'm almost convinced that either my personal gun or the entire batch of Springfields was defective or faulty. That's good to know then, at least from your guys standpoint. I still won't buy from him again mainly because of his personal attack against me and the fact that my musket had a defect (half the breech plug chiseled away to make a flash channel and/or a poorly fitted plug) and it was still sold to me that way. If MVT were a distributor like Dixie, Fall Creek, etc I would be understanding. But these guys are the importer/manufacturer (well, you know what I mean). In my eyes as these are advertised live firearms they should be checked for any defects before being sold to a customer who is told he can shoot it without proofing it, it'll be fine.

The handmade looking ness was actually one of the things I liked about the musket. It had a rough appearance that I would expect (or at least I expected) from an original that was done largely by hand with no concept of interchangeable parts.

I was greatly displeased by the markings. Not because they were modern (The Armi Sport Made In Italy stamped on my '42 doesn't really bug me) but they looked like they were done by someone who had no clue what they were doing. Pete has an S stamped on every part because that is what was done on originals, but he went over board. There should be a US on the buttplate, there is only an S. There are S's on some parts where I don't believe they were historically, on many parts there are double stampings namely S's that didn't go through all the way, so the operator moved the press over slightly and stamped another one. The U.S. Eagle on the lockplate looks barely stamped, most of it is an impression rather than an actual stamping. There are also modern serial numbers stamped on the butt plate in plain sight, and a "3" hidden on the lock and barrel, but stamped in plain sight on the middle barrel band. Also some of the stampings (1816 on the tang) are very faintly done.

All in all this particular piece is shoddy and I should have sent it back. Curse my being a nice guy about returning gifts.

His other muskets seem to be fine. Many shoot them live w/o problems so it seems. Many also have a multitude of problems with them, though no failures (except that Bess that blew, but no one knows which of the three companies made that one). It seems on everyone else's musket the touch hole is drilled in front of the plug as it should be, and when I asked Pete why mine wasn't he tried to claim how mine was like an original and it is there to support the "massive breech plug aligning to the chamber."

I won't buy another India gun, but that's just because of personal preference. In the end it is a crapshoot with all the manufacturers, the only SAFETY issue I've ever heard with the Italian muskets is on older Euroarms Enfields the breech plug also had issues. Thankfully I don't intend to buy an Enfield anytime soon.

I'm either sticking with the big names or see if I can't get a custom gun made in the states. It may be pricey, but I have a feeling it'll be worth every penny.
 
Howdy JG!

What do you want in order to make this right? Just asking where you are at this point and how you would like it to progress.

James
 
I'm sending the barrel in today. Pete said he will inspect it and either replace it or fix it.

When I get the new barrel in I will inspect it, repeat my oil test (especially if it is a new barrel) and if it doesn't happen again I'll either proof it and keep it, or more than likely sell it. If it fails the oil test again, I will call Pete and ask just what is going on, demand a replacement barrel, and insist that he, not I, pay the shipping.

Part of me is wanting to side with the argument that this was just a one-off defective musket. It can happen, and with no apparent QC someone was going to get a lemon at some point. The other part of me wants to just sell it, it might be safe but this whole experience has left a bad taste in my mouth regarding India guns and, regarding customer service, MVT in general.
 
I just saw a post on another forum that said these guns had barrels made of black pipe anyone find and hard docums on just what they make the barrels out of? I think I would tend to save a bit and get a domestic in the white project, something about a little gut with a towel on his head hammering gun parts together for a sack of rice does not paint a picture of QC to me.
 
You are correct about buying American. My absolute favorite hunting gun is a .595 I ordered from Centermark about 1992. Its well built, beautiful, fun and accurate. I also own two custom built rifles by American makers. But I do protect these more than I do the Indian guns and worry more about them in my canoe or in days of rain (although we've seen precious little rain in the last year). I will hunt with them for the sunny day but not several wet days where pitting may begin on powder residue or wood finish may cloud. These others have seen some rough use in mountainous terrain and bad weather. I have loaned them to other reinactors to use and one has seen the bottom of the Broad River. Fortunately the water was clear that day but we about froze retrieving it in November.

Best,
Capn D
 
MVTC's site says they are DOM tubing. Pipe and tubing are not the same animal other than both being round. There seems to be so much emotion over the construction of these guns it is becoming hard to distinguish truth from fiction. Maybe Pete should weigh in and set the record straight once and for all about the materials used in the construction of these guns. It seems you either love them or hate them with the numbers splitt about 50/50.
 
I just wonder how one knows what they do over there, I don't have a bone in this fight as they don't make anything I am interested in the "Tulle" they came out with looked pretty ragged to me, all the pics make the locks look kind of ragged to my eye but I have never handled one, I guess they have their nich I just wounder if it may be more suitable to bklank fireing re enacting, hope no more problems occur and all is well with these guns for everyones sake.
 
Mike Brooks said:
So, what's wrong with buying a good ol' American made product? :hmm: :wink:

They're of a quality that's too high to be priced competitively for your average military gun? There are at least a few foreign made repros that are decent enough to be a good value.

Just curious, how much should an American made US 1816 musket repro cost, Mike?
 
Has anyone here had similar bad experiences with Loyalist Arms muskets ? This forum should have a big sampling of their customers .
 
Carteret Kid said:
Has anyone here had similar bad experiences with Loyalist Arms muskets ? This forum should have a big sampling of their customers .

We have a great Review system on the Forum, but it doesn't get used very much. You'd think that with all the experience and knowledge we have here, there'd be more interest.

Forum Reviews
 
Years ago I was talking with a gun builder that had contracted with an Indian firm to make a lot of reproduction wheelock for him. Just the lock not the gun. He wanted to make wheelocks to sell and the locks are time consuming to make by yourself. He said that the Indian manufacturer's make a great sample. You buy based on the sample, and then they figure out how to make a profit by cheapening the work. In his experience the sample was great but the rest of the order was junk and he was not able to use the balance of the order or get his money back. I would guess that the same thing is still happening. Companies order a gun, get a great sample, place the order and then get whatever junk the Indian companies care to send.

Many Klatch
 
Now that makes a lot of sense to me. Perhaps the way to do bussines with these people is to put a 50% deposit down with them at the time of the order, get the product in, give it a good looking over and if it doesn't pass muster withhold payment until they correct it. They want to be in the gun bussiness, a few orders treated in this manner will have them fixing their act quickly.
Just A Thought :v
 
tmdreb said:
Mike Brooks said:
So, what's wrong with buying a good ol' American made product? :hmm: :wink:

They're of a quality that's too high to be priced competitively for your average military gun? There are at least a few foreign made repros that are decent enough to be a good value.

Just curious, how much should an American made US 1816 musket repro cost, Mike?

The Rifle Shoppe will build one for $2,195.00. They just quoted me a price for an assembled lock($295.00) and threw in the price for the complete musket as well. I'm in the process of gathering parts for a hybrid?? 1816 to supplement my original. Hybrid in the sense that it'll have a sighted,rifled barrel that I had made by Dan Whitacre. Originally I planned to use it in the original stock, swapping it back and forth with the smoothbore barrel sort of like having two guns in one. I've since decided to build one outright. The stock will come from Dunlap and I hope to use mostly original parts. The lock is the biggest obstacle. Lodgewood wants $595.00 for one reconverted from percussion. I'm looking for a percussion lock that I can rebuild myself. If that doesn't work out I'll go with the Rifle Shoppe. They say they can do one in 6-8 weeks.

Duane
 
All the locks I've had from the rifle shop that they assembled were top notch and worked great. The wait on the other hand can be long. That price for the assembled musket is pretty good in my opinion.
 
Just curious, how much should an American made US 1816 musket repro cost, Mike?
Varies, depending on who does it and what degree of quality you desire. At least $2000 would be a good starting point for something I wouldn't be embarrassed to be seen in public with.
We all have our idea of what's affordable. I never personally buy the cheapest gun I can find, which seems to be a big part of American thinking these days. As an example, I'm on a handgun buying binge at the moment. I'm mainly buying pre war colts for the most part. Why? Quality, and I know that they'll not only retain their value, but will continue to rise in value while I have them. I could go buy some new made cheap ass foreign made gun that the workmanship is poor and would instantly go down in value by 1/2 as soon as I buy it. It would work, may shoot as well as an old colt, but it will always be a piece of manure that will always be worth 1/2 of what I payed for it. You can polish a turd all you want , but it will always be just a turd.
The Mike Brooks philosophy of life. :haha: Buy the best you can, you'll never regret it.
 
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