Indian Imports

[Runner]

Let's see. I paid 300$ for my truck and put an engine in it. The "new" car is a 2001 Kia Sephia that I just finished replacing the transmission in a day or so ago. My expensive muzzleloader cost me 125$ a few years back. I am trying to gather enough change to buy one of those cheap junk import reproduction 31 calibver revolvers right now, but 275$ is gonna take a while. I am sitting here trying to think of a situation where I would feel comfortable buying a musket for 2500$. Even winning the lottery would not make that ok for me I think. I would still feel guilty about it and I darned sure could never hunt with it! I have been eyeing three acres for a little less than that for some time!
That could be a lot of the misunderstandings and failures to understand the other guys point right there!

 

[Mike Brooks]

I have been eyeing three acres for a little less than that for some time!

Better look for some land that is under water for six months out of the year, you can get it dirt cheap. Why pay so much more for good land? Land is land right?
Same thing as buying junk guns.
I'd rather save my money and buy one good gun than buy 5 junk guns just because they're cheap. When you get ready to sell (and you will) that one good gun will have retained it's value or increased while five junk guns will still be five junk guns.

 

[dgold]

Has anyone here had similar bad experiences with Loyalist Arms muskets ? This forum should have a big sampling of their customers .

We have a great Review system on the Forum, but it doesn't get used very much. You'd think that with all the experience and knowledge we have here, there'd be more interest.

Forum Reviews

Darn Claude, I missed that. What else have you got hidden out there that we should know about?

 

[Claude Mathis]

We have a great Review system on the Forum, but it doesn't get used very much. You'd think that with all the experience and knowledge we have here, there'd be more interest.

Forum Reviews

Darn Claude, I missed that. What else have you got hidden out there that we should know about?

Everything we have is listed n the Forum Index:[url] http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/fusionbb.php[/url]

 

[tmdreb]

Varies, depending on who does it and what degree of quality you desire. At least $2000 would be a good starting point for something I wouldn't be embarrassed to be seen in public with.
We all have our idea of what's affordable. I never personally buy the cheapest gun I can find, which seems to be a big part of American thinking these days. As an example, I'm on a handgun buying binge at the moment. I'm mainly buying pre war colts for the most part. Why? Quality, and I know that they'll not only retain their value, but will continue to rise in value while I have them. I could go buy some new made cheap ass foreign made gun that the workmanship is poor and would instantly go down in value by 1/2 as soon as I buy it. It would work, may shoot as well as an old colt, but it will always be a piece of manure that will always be worth 1/2 of what I payed for it. You can polish a turd all you want , but it will always be just a turd.
The Mike Brooks philosophy of life. :haha: Buy the best you can, you'll never regret it.

That's actually not too much more than what they're wanting to charge for a new Pedersoli these days. Of course, they're not nearly worth the price.

I would think it should be possible to manufacture acceptably authentic and safe reproduction military smoothbore muskets on a mass scale for under $1000 and probably much less. By their nature, the item being reproduced does not require the level of craftsmanship than does a civilian rifle or fowler. Of course, for an individual builder to reproduce one musket, the costs of materials and labor are responsible for the cost, and the reproduction will be very high quality. I do understand that.

Something else to consider is the delivery time of the parts. For an 1816 musket, the parts may come a lot quicker, but I do know someone who received a custom built Hall carbine 6 years and $2,000+ later because TRS took so long to deliver all the parts.

 

[Parzifal]

[/quote]
I would think it should be possible to manufacture acceptably authentic and safe reproduction military smoothbore muskets on a mass scale for under $1000 [/quote]



There is such a company
[url] www.loyalistarms.freeservers.com[/url]

!!!!

I have their 1 st mod bess and their heavy carbine 3 rd mod bess both completed from their "specials" section kits,

These are NOT cheap guns, no one who has handeled them after they were reassembled and completed would fathom to say such a incorrect description.

they put my piedersoli to shame plain and simple.
I cannot help but voice my support to these worthy arms.



Rob

:thumbsup:

 

[Robert Egler]

Bess, sent you a private topic question
- Squirrel Tail

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

I would think it should be possible to manufacture acceptably authentic and safe reproduction military smoothbore muskets on a mass scale for under $1000 [/quote]



There is such a company
[url] www.loyalistarms.freeservers.com[/url]

!!!!

I have their 1 st mod bess and their heavy carbine 3 rd mod bess both completed from their "specials" section kits,

These are NOT cheap guns, no one who has handeled them after they were reassembled and completed would fathom to say such a incorrect description.

they put my piedersoli to shame plain and simple.
I cannot help but voice my support to these worthy arms.



Rob

:thumbsup: [/quote]







Rob, they are still made in India by the same people. How can you say that they put the Italian products to shame? Now, I have had a couple of email exchanges with the people at Loyalist and they are extremely nice and friendly people and I will eventually buy a bayonet from them but after a discussion about their Lorenz rifle reproduction on the Authentic Campaigner Forum a year or so ago and hearing their thoughts about its authenticity. They were working from photographs only, not an original in their possession in Canada or in India. To quote their (Loyalists email responding to the thread:

"We had no original to copy. You see, being in Canada, Lorenz rifles are extremely rare. We never had a civil war that needed vast numbers of European guns to be imported. I think our first attempt wasn't too bad."

It seems that they do not have originals to copy on any of the guns that they make. How can you even come close to a reasonable reproduction of anything if you do not have first hand experience with the real thing? I had been in support of their efforts - up until that statement. Now, I can't bring myself to even think about buying one of their guns nor would I recommend anyone buying one and that is on the "authenticity" level only. After seeing their products and handling originals, there is no comparison and I think we can see why. When it comes to shooting one, one look at the external appearance of the breeching method used is enough to scare me off. True, the Italians have authenticity problems as well but at least I know they are safe to fire with ball and heavy loads. And I am not the only one, Pedersoli products do very well in US and International muzzle loading competitive shooting, rifle and smoothbore, you can't even come close to making that claim for any of the muskets made in India, no matter who is selling them.

 

[scroggwe]

Rob, I don't believe that you or I or anyone else is ever gonna change the mind of these detractors of Indian-made muskets.

I personally can't speak about the quality of any of the Indian-made muskets except for the one that I have. A year and a half ago I ordered a Military Dog-lock musket from the Discriminating General.

When I received it, I drilled a touchhole and proofed it. I have fired it since them, probably 60+ times. It shoots a good group at 50 yards and fires first time, every time.

This Military dog-lock of mine is every bit as good as my Pedersoli Short Land Brown Bess (despite what the last poster claims!). The only things that I didn't like about it when I first got it was the very shiny finish on the metal parts, and the varnished stock. I still haven't corrected those two items, but plan on doing so.

Now with all that being said, I still have a $500.00 musket. It is not of a comparable quality with my two custom-built muzzleloaders (a Bobby Christian-built flintlock fowler and an Andy Knight-built North Carolina percussion rifle. As I said, it is of a comparable quality with my Pedersoli Brown Bess, though. I do believe that the Pedersoli guns are way overpriced!!

I love custom-built muzzleloaders and don't mind paying the price for quality. I just don't want to spend that kind of money and then have to wait for over a year for it. I guess I'm a little impatient, but for that kind of money, I don't want to wait that long for my gun. That is why I buy my custom-built muzzleloaders from Track of the Wolf. I probably pay a little more, but I recieve the guns in a couple of weeks.

 

[Parzifal]

Hi Va Manf.

When I said the Loyalist guns put the Italian guns to shame I meant , -IN MY EXPERIENCE-
I have 1 piedersoli product, and It doesnt come close to my loyalist muskets as far as quality /price balancing goes.

Mind you thats been my experience and does not apply across the board.

My piedersoli is going to cost me hundreds of extra dollars for me to have the breach reworked so I can take it into the field and really rely on it That has me some frustrated.

Summer of 2007 I went to Nova Scotia to my property I left my long land at home and brought my Piedersoli bess, and my blunder bess, The piedersoli worked great for the first couple shots when I picked the touch hole the deep groove in the breech caught and held my touch hole cleaner and basically spiked my musket , no manner of field cleaning freed it.

I ended up blowing more then a lb of ffg through that relyable little INDIAN blunderBess, while the "high quality" Piedersoli just took up space in my tent.

I really love the custom guns, and for the price of the piedersoli completed gonne I could get a baker kit from the rifle shoppe

I like the products loyalist offers, there service and decency.

I have tried to contact piedersoli, to no avail.

Thugh being in italy what possibly could Guseppi do for me.

It is the opinion I have from my experience with them.

Cheers
"sorry for the loooong post"

Rob

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

Rob, no problem, your posts are always pleasant to read and I appreciate and understand you conviction and loyalty to Loyalist, they have apparently done well by you, I just wish that they sold a better made and what I personally could consider a safer product. If you need to contact Pedersoli, why not contact their "in country" representative? Surely there is one in Canada, there is one in the US and they may be your source if there is not a Canadian company that acts in their behalf. Check their website, they have representatives for most countries around the world where their products are sold.

How did you finally get your vent pick out? The only thing that I can think of that would have caused something similar to what you describe is serious, built up fouling, but even that should not have caused what you describe. And wow, a whole pound of powder at a single event? Amazing, even some of the worst ACW events don't see that much burned by individuals on a three day weekend, I'm impressed! At any rate, keep to the military muskets, they are more interesting and downright fun than any other - at least to me.

 

[Parzifal]

Hi VA MANF.
The lb of powder wasnt burnt at a event , just out in the bush with my pals, By the time I was done the frizzen on the blunderbess was shot out.

Speaking of Piedersolis in country rep, I think Loyalist actually may be one as they do sell their muskets...??
I have to send my blunderbesses frizzen to em some time before spring, maybe I will ask if they have any ideas about the piedersolis barell and what I should do.

Cheers.
sorry to Hijack the thread guys

Rob

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

Sounds like a good time was had by all.

And yes, Loyalist is listed as a distributer for Davide Pedersoli firearms but they are not a Service Point nor do they provide warranty service if your Bess is still under warranty. In Canada that would be:

GARY HOWE'S GUNSMITHING AT SHOOTER'S CHOICE
631 Colby Drive Waterloo, ON, N2V 1B4 (Ontario) CANADA
Tel: 519-746-8139 Fax: 519-746-6394

But I am still interested in my main question from my last post, how did you get the vent pick out and what was holding it in the breech? That is a very interesting problem that, frankly, I have never heard of before unless it somehow got jammed in old, caked fouling and even then it would be easy to get it out.

 

[Parzifal]

Well, I really soaked the barell in breakfree while in the bush so I wouldent pit up the barell.

6 days later at home, I took off the barell stood in the shower and just worked on it with a rag around my range rods tip, after just given er for who knows how long the pressure of the pumpin or the hot water and the back and forth action just forced it out. no Damage to the bore. thankfully.

I couldent pump it for the first while as the touch hole was spiked real well and the picker just perfectly nesteled in the breech plugs groove.

I figure it was held by a bit of fouling?? odd thing is I also think it was pushed slightly aside??

It was from my ring of C-6 cleaning tools,A ring of tools I will never use on a musket again.

Now as far as warranty goes, is my receipt from dixie acceptable?? would the gent in waterloo do the repairs himself?

I hate other folk touching my guns, but if its covered by warranty, thats going to save me some serious $$

I figure he would have to take out the plug and and grind it down a few millimeteres, I would do it myself but ...I am wary of doing this work because of future safety issues.

Thanks for the contact info of that gent!
I just may give him a ring in the coming week.

Rob

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

Not a problem. If it is still under warranty, I wouldn't try to take out the plug myself, that would likely void said warranty. Check with them and they will tell you by the date on the receipt from Dixie if you are still covered, here is the link to their distributor network along with approved repair people:
http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/default.aspx?item=distributori&lang=en

Hope that you get it straightened out.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Bessbattle system

I figure he would have to take out the plug and and grind it down a few millimeteres, I would do it myself but ...I am wary of doing this work because of future safety issues.

Do not remove any material from the front of the breechplug. You want that front surface to mate with the barrel. If you expose the threads in the breech, then you can have powder and fouling build up. That will severely weaken your breech and that is something you don't want to do!

 

[JGPrince]

Grenadier, you saying that very thing highlighted my major concern with my MVT Model 1816. It was clear at least half the breech plug was drilled out to form a touch hole, I didn't see how it could be safe.

Also, I send the barrel on mine in last week, and according to USPS MVTCo received it the 9th. As of today, the 14th, I've received no response to my emails as to what the problem was, how they intend to fix it, or even that they received the barrel.

Bessbattle system

I figure he would have to take out the plug and and grind it down a few millimeteres, I would do it myself but ...I am wary of doing this work because of future safety issues.

Do not remove any material from the front of the breechplug. You want that front surface to mate with the barrel. If you expose the threads in the breech, then you can have powder and fouling build up. That will severely weaken your breech and that is something you don't want to do!

 

[pegro1]

Well what an interesting post this is. But I gaotta say I have Loyalist Arms Early French Fusil de Chasse .62cal. and out of the box the stock was beautiful, I took it to an armorer and he said it was in great workinf order so I browned the barrel and worked the locks to what I wanted and it shoots great. About 1 1/2 to 2 inches off center out to 75 yards :thumbsup: For me the flinter is real good, sure its not as good as custom made by those such as Jim Chambers, Dillions Flinters, Mark Gruhl, or whom ever, but my Loyalist Arms shoots great, looks good, and gets the job done. At several re-enactments and treks others have liked it, and on an extended trek it brought in my dinner, so what can I say.
Jim

 

[bingo1952]

I am also happy with my Cookson. I still have a little tuning and load work to do but so far so good. :grin:

 

[pegro1]

And the battle rages on...
With all the fuss over Indian made barrels and them "blowing up" I called Blair at Loyalist Arms and asked about the breech. The India made guns that blew up were breeches that were pressed instead of threaded. I just wanted to let everyone know that Loyalist Arms & Repair does use the barrels (barrels only) made in India but that they are in fact threaded at the breech plug. I have a Loyalist Arms Early French Fusil de Chasse trade gun (Tulle) and its a great looking and shooting gun. Blair and Linda have assured me it is threaded and safe, they test fire each weapon and put 30 rounds through them at 25 yards from a bench rest, this is to determine the functionality is working and safe, amount of powder charge they recommend, and the ball and patch size. My Loyalist Arms french Tulle out shoots my Pedersoli and is way sommther in action. I have to stand by a product that is as good or better than that.
Loyalist Arms has done projects such as:
Ferns Productions Captain Cooke: Betrayal and Obsession in the New World.
CBS "Comanche Moon" with Val Kilmer.
History Channels' July/06 release, "True Caribbean Pirates".
Disney Productions "Pirates of the Caribbean III, At Worlds End".
Christopher Cain’s "September Dawn"
Disney Productions "Pirates of the Caribbean II, Dead Man's Chest"
Sony Pictures "Zorro" filmed in Mexico.
PBS production "The War That Made America" series
Disney Productions "Pirates Of The Caribbean I, Curse..Black Pearl "
20th Century Fox "Master And Commander, Far Side of the World "
Television Series "Blackfly", (filmed in Nova Scotia)
T.V. Documentary "Halifax Explosion", (filmed in Nova Scotia)
Disney Productions "Alamo"
And numerous theatrical productions in the US & Canada,
including "Blood Brothers" and "Evangelene"

Although if you don’t take my word for it you can contact them at:
Loyalist Arms And Repairs
10 Brunt Road,
Harrietsfield, Nova Scotia
Canada
B3V 1B1

Telephone: 1 (902) 479-0967 E-mail: [email protected]

Blair’s response was in fact: All muzzle loading guns that are meant to fire live rounds must have breech plugs threaded in. Anything else is unsafe. Since we sell fully functional guns, ours are of course threaded in. That's why we send out loading and proofing data with all our guns.

Hope this helps.
Jim
:grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: