Indian Imports

[chuckpa]

A very interesting discussion. How about the man that had only one gun and that one was a long fowler, do you think he was just limited to big birds? In "Flintlock Fowlers The First Guns Made in America" by Tom Grinsdale I noted that some fowlers had there stocks cut back from the muzzle for a bayonet so I guess they lugged them around in the wars. I think there are still a lot of questions to be asked and maybe with some research we can get some answers.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Some fowlers did have their stocks cut back at the muzzle to take a socket bayonet and others used a plug bayonet. But these were the lighter fowlers in the same weight range as the contemporary muskets or a bit lighter. I doubt that many of the dedicated heavy water fowling pieces that weighed 14 to 20 pounds were often seen on the field of battle.

 

[tg]

I think you are right on there Russ, but at times it is more fun to re write history to fit our beliefs and justify our choices.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Yep. I've got a 10 bore fowler coming in a few months, and I think I'll get a plug bayonet for it. I have absolutely no earthly use for one, but you never know. Perhaps one day while roaming the uplands in search of grouse I will be attacked by an enraged chipmunk while reloading. You can't be too careful!

 

[bingo1952]

The Cookson is not in the "Heavy Water fowling" category, no 14 gauge is or ever will be. Mine weighs in at 9 lbs even. Not an upland gun for sure but not a real heavyweight either. When you look at the weight of this gun you have to take into consideration its bore size which is going to add weight simply by the fact that it takes more steel to wrap around a .69 vs. a .62 ball. I am not under any illusions that this gun is "PC" but I don't care. It is a shooter that approximately represents a type and was purchased as a hunter. I have no interest in doing "LH" been there done that. You folks that are into that more power to you but don't look down on the rest of us with that condescending attitude that says, Poor fellow just doesn't understand. Live and let live. :wink: :v

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

I did not mean to appear condescending. :surrender: I assure you that any gun that is O.K. with Elmer Fudd is O.K. with me! :thumbsup: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Actually, fowlers in the 14 gauge range are thought of as upland guns and usually weigh down in the 7 pound + or - area. My 10 bore or .775 fowler will weigh just under 8 pounds with a 48" barrel, so a 9 pound 14 gauge does seem a bit on the chubby side to me. My gun will be stocked in well seasoned cherry while most of the Indian imports are stocked in teak or rosewood--lovely woods to be sure, but heavy as sin. Perhaps this explains the extra tonnage? I suppose in that sense your fowler does fall into the heavy fowler category. :grin:

 

[Mike Vach]

When I went to the gun show this weekend, there was a booth full of Indian Imports. They looked very nice and shiny and the wood/metal fit was decent - about what you would expect. But they still appeared rather rough. I spent a lot of time at the show but nobody was in that booth. The gentlemen who were manning it would smile and beckon but nobody was going in there. Like they were being shunned or something. Nice guys, though.

 

[chuckpa]

I was not talking about 14lb. dedicated heavy water fowlers as you call them being fitted for bayonets. It is very nice that you can have a nice cherry stock made for yourself and keep your weight down. Please look on page 111 of the book I mentioned in my last post. you will see a club butt fowler of 10.5 lbs. outfitted for a bayonet. My point was that a fellow may only have one gun and he had to put it to use for various tasks. The Indian Cookson is not as finley made as a custom gun is however it does fill a nitch in the market for guys who just want to have some fun and don't feel like laying $2000.00 or can't aford it. Now if folks on the forum want to look down on us and call us Elmer Fudd and think we just don't understand history and PC well so be it.
I'll just go to the range this week end and shoot the Cookson for fun.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Most of the early muskets did weigh 10.5 pounds or so. In the case of the fowler on page 111, a lot of the weight comes from the use of that iron ramrod and what appears to be a military barrel. In fact a case could be made for this particular piece being a composite gun made up for AWI use--more musket than fowler.
I don't recall Mr. Fudd being much of a bird hunter; if memory serves rabbits were his game of choice. Elmer was a specialist to be reckoned with.

 

[Mike Brooks]

if memory serves rabbits were his game of choice. Elmer was a specialist to be reckoned with.

You mis speak...it was "waskawy wabbits" that Elmer considered his game. :haha:
I'll not insult any one with their choice of gun. But, don't anyone get the idea that these India made guns are anything like the originals they are supposed to represent, they simply are not.

 

[sharps54]

I visited Dixon's in Kempton, PA on Monday and was very suprised to see a "Cookson" fowler there! I was visiting Dad and we went up there mainly to look. I brought my MVTC double barrel flintlock pistol up to Dad's to show it to him and I had told him about the "Cookson" on Sunday night, it was great to be able to show one to him in person! It did balance OK for being taller then I am! I just didn't expect to see an India import at Dixon's. :hmm:

 

[chuckpa]

Dixons has sold a lot of the India imports from MVTC. They seem to be very popular. Some of the matchlocks etc. have been purchased by people giving lectures. For those not familiar with Dixon's they have the largest open inventory of muzzle loaders east of the big muddy. They also hold an annual Gun makers Fair in July. So you can compare some very fine hand crafted guns to the imports.

 

[sharps54]

chuckpa,
I hope I didn't word my message poorly. There sure isn't anything wrong with Dixon's selling them, I was just suprised to see it there. That said I am really glad it was because I was able to show Dad what we discussed the night before!

 

[chuckpa]

Not at all Sharps I was just commenting. When you come up this way again let me know I only live about 10 min. from Dixons and we can get together and chat or go shooting. I would be happy to let you and Dad shoot my Cookson.

 

[sharps54]

Chuck,
That's a gracious offer, I appreciate it. Dad lives in West Chester, it took us about 1 1/2 hours to get up there on Monday but it was a pretty nice drive once we got on I-476 and away from Philly. We also went over to Cabelas to look around, of course we only spend an hour there compared to over 2 hours in Dixon's!

 

[chuckpa]

The next time you are coming up this way send me a PT and I will give you another way to get up here which will save you time and be a easier ride. I was in Dixons again today and I saw two guys who had bought Indian Brown Bess Muscats and they said they really liked them.

 

[sharps54]

Chuckpa, Will do!

I did buy the rest of the items I needed to shoot my MVTC .62 flintlock doublebarrel pistol while I was at Dixon's (some .595 RB and 20 guage overshot cards) so I hope to be able to give a range report on it later this week.

 

[JGPrince]

THought I would update about my MVTC 1816. Turns out the problem was whoever built the dang thing did NOT tighten the breech screw. So my musket was literally a pipebomb waiting to go off.

MVTC finally (after almost a month....) got the barrel back to me, and tightened the breech screw. I'm not sure whether to blame MVTC's crude tools or manhandling the musket, or the shoddy metal used in the gun barrels construction, but part of the breech plug tang is mashed in from where they tightened and/or removed the screw. Not enough to be a hazard, but enough to make me wonder just how strong this supposed "Big name" steel truly is. (Want pictures? I can provide them...)

However, my lock is still a POS. The thing has started hanging up on half cock (see my new topic), and rather by accident I found it will "fire" fine if the cock is removed. Kinda hard to fire a flintlock that way but what the heck. Pete at MVT is so angered at me he refuses to return emails, so I'm still saddled with the lemon. I'm going to hope someone will buy it (at a far cheaper than new price, despite me reworking the butt) and hope that Pete will graciously fix the lock if they send it in.

Have to say I'm still anti Indian guns as all the vendors, to my knowledge, have problems. But then so do the Italians. All I know is I've been burned by MVTC, but not Armi Sport or EuroArms.

 

[chuckpa]

what are you asking for the gun? What did you do to the butt?