Indian Muskets

[springfield art]

Of course that never happened in Britain or America did it

That must be the Mahindra?

 

[Stantheman86]

Loyalist Arms got back to me and said their Indian factory won't make me a .65 P59 3-bander......didn't think it was that much of a stretch since they sell a .65 carbine but whatever , I guess.

 

[Artificer]

Loyalist Arms got back to me and said their Indian factory won't make me a .65 P59 3-bander......didn't think it was that much of a stretch since they sell a .65 carbine but whatever , I guess.

First I should point out I have never seen this done, but is it possible to ream out a .58 cal. one to .65 cal. without the barrel wall left too thin? Not sure if there was a difference or enough difference in barrel diameters on the originals?

Gus

 

[Loyalist Dave]

People should, if possible, save up and spend extra for the Italian ones

IF you read everything that Dphar wrote on page 11, I'd not be necessarily that "trusting" of the Italian barrels either. I know that their proofing pressure is about 100% less than the British and the German proofing houses, so it's quite possible that a Pedersoli would pass Italian proof with flying colors and rupture if it was sent to Birmingham. We have members on the forum that have sent their India made barrels to Birmingham as well as German proof houses, and they passed. Does that mean that my India smooth bore will not have a problem? Nope. But Dphar noted several American failures over the years, and I got a 20 gauge barrel made by an American manufacturer and breeched by a well known company that sells rifle parts..., and there was gap between the breech face and the rifling. You pretty much "pays your money and takes your chances"... regardless..., unless you're Dphar and have his knowledge and can actually check the barrel as he does.

LD

 

[Rifleman1776]

I had heard rumors that there was such a thing as 'two piece' barrels, but didn't believe it! Is that actually true? Good grief! People should, if possible, save up and spend extra for the Italian ones; they're easier to sell if you decide to switch out...

Yes, they existed. I'm sure it was simply a cheap-out way to manufacture a rifle in the days of a rapidly growing (sorta) new avocation. Mine was a bear to load due to a bad mating of the two pieces and, of course, didn't shoot well at all.

 

[Stantheman86]

First I should point out I have never seen this done, but is it possible to ream out a .58 cal. one to .65 cal. without the barrel wall left too thin? Not sure if there was a difference or enough difference in barrel diameters on the originals?

Gus

This was the exact problem with the early "Mutiny Muskets" , the British attempted to simply ream the Sepoys .58 Enfield bores to. 65 Smoothbore but the barrel walls were too thin.

I believe new made .65 barrels were made in England to fit to existing rifle-muskets and then complete. 65 Smoothbore Enfields were produced in England.

Historically , those original P59 .65 muskets were used through WWII to train new Colonial Indian recruits in marching and weapons handling, until they reached the point in their training where they were issued modern (for the time ) weapons.

"Collective Knowledge " and online blog chatter seems to feel that Indian arsenals (Ishapore?) continued to produce .65 Smoothbore P59's into the 1860s and after the British .577 Enfield became obsolete, those were produced into the 1880s. It seemed the British just did not want the Indian troops to have equal weaponry capability.

So........I thought an Indian made P59 would be kind of a neat, fun thing to have but no one wants to bother with it. Loyalist keeps pointing me toward their .65 Enfield Carbine which is also historically correct but not as fun in my opinion.

At one time , it seems, those Indian musket factories did make P59's but not any more.

This is an original Tower produced .65 Cavalry Carbine , I assume for Colonial Indian Cavalry. Loyalist Arms sells a repro of this. At some point these were originally made in India in the 1860s , and they claim originals are used for the basis of the Indian copies .......so maybe its kinda like a poor man's Parker Hale

 

[FlinterNick]

IF you read everything that Dphar wrote on page 11, I'd not be necessarily that "trusting" of the Italian barrels either. I know that their proofing pressure is about 100% less than the British and the German proofing houses, so it's quite possible that a Pedersoli would pass Italian proof with flying colors and rupture if it was sent to Birmingham. We have members on the forum that have sent their India made barrels to Birmingham as well as German proof houses, and they passed. Does that mean that my India smooth bore will not have a problem? Nope. But Dphar noted several American failures over the years, and I got a 20 gauge barrel made by an American manufacturer and breeched by a well known company that sells rifle parts..., and there was gap between the breech face and the rifling. You pretty much "pays your money and takes your chances"... regardless..., unless you're Dphar and have his knowledge and can actually check the barrel as he does.

LD

I think for the most part, the Pedersoli barrels are very good quality, I wouldn't doubt them too much, sometimes the breech plugs need to be filed down, but I've only seen that once with an earlier production 1816 in 1991, in 20 years of working on blackpowder guns, of course that's not to say that other Italian barrels are not so great. Zoli barrels were very good, very heavy, thick and most were button rifled.

The American made barrels, Rayl and Colraine and Hoyt and others make very good quality barrels, the standards on their barrels are pretty high. other than being often too heavy, I haven't had many issues with American made barrels that were not born of the user of the barrel who tried to modify and screwed things up.

Miruko made some of the best smoothbore barrels I've ever seen, the Bess, Charleville and at one time they a brief run on a 1808 Springfield Musket with Navy Arms which is very good.

The most important thing I think for a smoothbore barrel, especially military is the tapering and barrel thickness. Heavier at the breech and thinner toward the muzzle in correct proportion with precision.

The problem I've had with many Indian guns is the tapers and or drillings are off, sometimes WAY off, with once side of the barrel being much thicker than the other and I'm forced to give a No shooting opinion on it. The breech plugs are also a problematic issue with Indian made guns.

As far as the steel is concerned, whether its tube stock or forged stock of 1095 or greater isn't really the problem. The barrel process of hardening and toughness of the metal is more important. Cold Rolled steel tubing I will never agree with this as a viable barrel making method, its simply a cost cutting method.

NG

 

[springfield art]

I think for the most part, the Pedersoli barrels are very good quality, I wouldn't doubt them too much, sometimes the breech plugs need to be filed down, but I've only seen that once with an earlier production 1816 in 1991, in 20 years of working on blackpowder guns, of course that's not to say that other Italian barrels are not so great. Zoli barrels were very good, very heavy, thick and most were button rifled.

The American made barrels, Rayl and Colraine and Hoyt and others make very good quality barrels, the standards on their barrels are pretty high. other than being often too heavy, I haven't had many issues with American made barrels that were not born of the user of the barrel who tried to modify and screwed things up.

Miruko made some of the best smoothbore barrels I've ever seen, the Bess, Charleville and at one time they a brief run on a 1808 Springfield Musket with Navy Arms which is very good.

The most important thing I think for a smoothbore barrel, especially military is the tapering and barrel thickness. Heavier at the breech and thinner toward the muzzle in correct proportion with precision.

The problem I've had with many Indian guns is the tapers and or drillings are off, sometimes WAY off, with once side of the barrel being much thicker than the other and I'm forced to give a No shooting opinion on it. The breech plugs are also a problematic issue with Indian made guns.

As far as the steel is concerned, whether its tube stock or forged stock of 1095 or greater isn't really the problem. The barrel process of hardening and toughness of the metal is more important. Cold Rolled steel tubing I will never agree with this as a viable barrel making method, its simply a cost cutting method.

NG

You know, the good ol' Proof Testing method that has been in the Dixie Catalog forever, is something that people could do themselves...you would then know exactly what charge you proofed it with; make a record so you don't forget it.

 

[Stantheman86]

Take the barrel out of the stock, measure the circumference at 3 different points.

Put it back together, put in a double charge that's within sanity (150 gr of 2f) with a tightly patched ball.

Secure it to something safe and solid and fire it via Redneck Remote control.

Disassemble and re-measure. If everything's the same, you're good.

Its "home proofed".

 

[Griz44Mag]

Seriously come on people; Indian made muskets are junky; made of poor quality materials ... you get what ya pay for.

I owned an Indian made Bess; reworking it wasn’t worth it, sold it off as Unshootable because it was the right thing to do.

The barrel wasn’t tapered straight and the breech plug wasn’t threaded appropriately.

So you are telling us you had something you considered unsafe and dangerous and sold it to someone else?
If for any reason you thought someone was going to get hurt or killed with something you sold them, and you knew that was the case, and you sold it too them anyway? I don't buy that that. If you really felt that way you would have junked it or rendered it unload-able before selling it. You claim to be an expert. B/S. You just wanted something better.

 

[Rudyard]

Having put lots of India made musket barrel through Birmingham proof house with out any failure and knowing something of the Indian manufacturers . I am of the opinion that though the stocking is awfull many got broken & the locks far from ideal . They can all be 'Got up' into serviceable guns .My own Reenactment musket I kept in the US was just such a piece though the barrel & stock (itself broken at the wrist) and the lock came from another gun on the old principal of the 'Cobblers kid is poorest shod'. Yet by the time I worked up such muskets, musketoons and blunderbusses they where a positive fire risk & re enactors hounded me to get them . Dixons of Kempton even bought one thinking it was my work . Ammuseingly I was picking some up at the proof house when some secretary shouted to the counter 'Are these sporting or military ?" The bloke at the counter shouted back" Sporting !" adding "Got to be a sport to shoot one of these ". Incidentally I too wrote articles for Buckskin Report and well remember the 'Who Ha' nonsence dreamed up by some 'Expert" on barrel steels .And Jerry Cunninghams sensible response and extensive testing .The 'Expert' had never made a single barrel . Jerry had made thousands and is a most articulate Gentleman . So who would you believe ?.
I never had anyones barrel fail proof some shotguns had minor bulges or' reject before' due the soldering on loops but all where fine bored resubmitted and passed . Birmingham was a proper working Proof house while London was a joke in my experience (Brum would mark all the ' Blackpowder only' type rubbish underneath ) There was a strike so I put a 45 flint barrel in London telling them to NOT put the writing visible just the mark . But they returned it with all their rubbish visible I rang them up "Oh we have to do it" they said . "You bloody don't, Brum don't"Its comeing off !." "Oh you cant do that "!. Phone down, file out, and I struck it all off and put it through Brum once they settled their interruption . Incidentally all 45 & 577 barrels cost less to proof due to the volume from Parker Hale so my round ball rifles got proofed like a 451 or 577 P Hale .They stood, its legal, finnish!. The Reference to West African Dane Guns (Country guns, Foo Foo guns same thing) I bought a Nigerian flint lock lock from Paul Adamson years ago but finding some galved water pipe I stocked it up in their style 'After the celibrated Jimmo Babatundi ' of Ikoroudo Lorry park fame . I fine bored it, threaded it (not brazed in a plug,) stocked it up & seamed or no it stood just fine though I did add the useual ' Mooti (magic ) talismans to ward of devils ect . Shot a rabbit but I do have more conventional guns and its main use is display. Regards Rudyard

 

[Straekat]

So you are telling us you had something you considered unsafe and dangerous and sold it to someone else?
If for any reason you thought someone was going to get hurt or killed with something you sold them, and you knew that was the case, and you sold it too them anyway? ...............

WOW!

 

[Grenadier1758]

So you are telling us you had something you considered unsafe and dangerous and sold it to someone else?
If for any reason you thought someone was going to get hurt or killed with something you sold them, and you knew that was the case, and you sold it too them anyway? I don't buy that that. If you really felt that way you would have junked it or rendered it unload-able before selling it. You claim to be an expert. B/S. You just wanted something better.

Seriously come on people; Indian made muskets are junky; made of poor quality materials ... you get what ya pay for.

I owned an Indian made Bess; reworking it wasn’t worth it, sold it off as Unshootable because it was the right thing to do.

The barrel wasn’t tapered straight and the breech plug wasn’t threaded appropriately.

Flinternick stated that the gun was sold as unshootable. It was clearly identified as a decoration to be used as a wall hangar. While he should have stated that the gun was rendered unshootable.

My disclosure is that I have an Indian manufactured Long Land Pattern musket. It is from Loyalist Arms and while heavy in the stock, it is a safe to shoot firearm both with blanks and live.

 

[springfield art]

Having put lots of India made musket barrel through Birmingham proof house with out any failure and knowing something of the Indian manufacturers . I am of the opinion that though the stocking is awfull many got broken & the locks far from ideal . They can all be 'Got up' into serviceable guns .My own Reenactment musket I kept in the US was just such a piece though the barrel & stock (itself broken at the wrist) and the lock came from another gun on the old principal of the 'Cobblers kid is poorest shod'. Yet by the time I worked up such muskets, musketoons and blunderbusses they where a positive fire risk & re enactors hounded me to get them . Dixons of Kempton even bought one thinking it was my work . Ammuseingly I was picking some up at the proof house when some secretary shouted to the counter 'Are these sporting or military ?" The bloke at the counter shouted back" Sporting !" adding "Got to be a sport to shoot one of these ". Incidentally I too wrote articles for Buckskin Report and well remember the 'Who Ha' nonsence dreamed up by some 'Expert" on barrel steels .And Jerry Cunninghams sensible response and extensive testing .The 'Expert' had never made a single barrel . Jerry had made thousands and is a most articulate Gentleman . So who would you believe ?.
I never had anyones barrel fail proof some shotguns had minor bulges or' reject before' due the soldering on loops but all where fine bored resubmitted and passed . Birmingham was a proper working Proof house while London was a joke in my experience (Brum would mark all the ' Blackpowder only' type rubbish underneath ) There was a strike so I put a 45 flint barrel in London telling them to NOT put the writing visible just the mark . But they returned it with all their rubbish visible I rang them up "Oh we have to do it" they said . "You bloody don't, Brum don't"Its comeing off !." "Oh you cant do that "!. Phone down, file out, and I struck it all off and put it through Brum once they settled their interruption . Incidentally all 45 & 577 barrels cost less to proof due to the volume from Parker Hale so my round ball rifles got proofed like a 451 or 577 P Hale .They stood, its legal, finnish!. The Reference to West African Dane Guns (Country guns, Foo Foo guns same thing) I bought a Nigerian flint lock lock from Paul Adamson years ago but finding some galved water pipe I stocked it up in their style 'After the celibrated Jimmo Babatundi ' of Ikoroudo Lorry park fame . I fine bored it, threaded it (not brazed in a plug,) stocked it up & seamed or no it stood just fine though I did add the useual ' Mooti (magic ) talismans to ward of devils ect . Shot a rabbit but I do have more conventional guns and its main use is display. Regards Rudyard

Regular people & re-enactors should simply follow the "proofing" tip in the back of the Dixie catalog...simple, done.

 

[Rudyard]

'Regular people' can do as they please but a UK gunmaker must submit a new gun to proof .If you make your own gun you needn't bother the offense is' selling giving or otherwise passing on an unprouved gun' . Only the UK & Europe have proof laws . US guns tend to be heavy affairs and this adds to safety no doubt . But while some think 8 pounds or so is managable this 74 year old likes to keep under 6 pounds, and 5 pounds or so better yet for a hunting rifle at least . Since you carry a gun /rifle miles. But a typical shot is under 50 yards more like 35 , and I once bowled a deer from the hip with my old Two grouve belted ball 24 bore since it was just a couple of feet from me .. Due to global warming the hills are today much steeper than they used to be .(Funny that.) Regardless my maxim was ever' if your going to carry weight make it edible ' And I have apon occasion gone for many little trips of at least a week & some where 12 to 18 days.
No biggey on the scale of David Thompson, Alexander Mc' Kenzie, or more locally Thomas Brunner & his Maori guide Ekeu but though the same off track stuff . Brunner incidently records that though he was afraid of his boots failing leaving him desperate ,Later concluded that the ability to dig & prepare fern root and make Maori type sandles would ensure he could carry on his explorations . Rudyard

 

[FlinterNick]

So you are telling us you had something you considered unsafe and dangerous and sold it to someone else?
If for any reason you thought someone was going to get hurt or killed with something you sold them, and you knew that was the case, and you sold it too them anyway? I don't buy that that. If you really felt that way you would have junked it or rendered it unload-able before selling it. You claim to be an expert. B/S. You just wanted something better.

I sold it as a non-functional musket / decoration. I milled out the underside of the breech, plugged it about 20 inches down.

Why do you require disclosure of this?

 

[FlinterNick]

Flinternick stated that the gun was sold as unshootable. It was clearly identified as a decoration to be used as a wall hangar. While he should have stated that the gun was rendered unshootable.

My disclosure is that I have an Indian manufactured Long Land Pattern musket. It is from Loyalist Arms and while heavy in the stock, it is a safe to shoot firearm both with blanks and live.

To be clearer, since you require strict disclosure, I milled out the barrel in the breech and filled it 20 inches down, when I sell something as non-functional I make sure its not functional, aka non-shootable

 

[Rudyard]

When I was down in India , Cawnpore you know . (Kanpur U P) I saw some real death traps sold. I remonstrated at the likley hood of failure .My host assured me" Indian cartridges where not very powerful" .I concluded such trifles as scruples where not part of an Indian bunkdook whallas day . Rudyard

 

[Mad L]

Regular people & re-enactors should simply follow the "proofing" tip in the back of the Dixie catalog...simple, done

Springfield Art; I believe you are speaking about a method such as Loyalist Arms describes when they ship out a non-tested barrel?
I purchased a Naval Issue Early Musket from them a while back, this is what what they said to do and included an instruction sheet - So I made up this video for him, he now says he uses the video to show future customers who choose to test themselves (I added a an extra measurement or two for good measure; have shot about 100 live rounds now and re-measured again last Spring, just because I could: still no bulging that I can find - pretty straight shooter too!)
Video is on my YouTube:

Oh, I might point out that unlike an above description, this one is done with the Barrel Removed from the stock. The Barrel only is secured in the tire.

 

[Grenadier1758]

To be clearer, since you require strict disclosure, I milled out the barrel in the breech and filled it 20 inches down, when I sell something as non-functional I make sure its not functional, aka non-shootable

To be quite clear, I don't require full disclosure, but since some people were implying that an unsafe gun was sold, it needed clarification.