Indian Muskets

[Griz44Mag]

To be clearer,

Sold as unshootable vs rendered unshootable, then sold.
Two completely different scenarios.
Why not say so in the first place?

 

[SDSmlf]

Sold as unshootable vs rendered unshootable, then sold.
Two completely different scenarios.
Why not say so in the first place?

Would think any expert would understand sold as ‘impossible to shoot’ means it was sold as ‘impossible to shoot’.

I don't buy that that. If you really felt that way you would have junked it or rendered it unload-able before selling it. You claim to be an expert. B/S. You just wanted something better.

 

[Griz44Mag]

Springfield Art; I believe you are speaking about a method such as Loyalist Arms describes when they ship out a non-tested barrel?
I purchased a Naval Issue Early Musket from them a while back, this is what what they said to do and included an instruction sheet - So I made up this video for him, he now says he uses the video to show future customers who choose to test themselves (I added a an extra measurement or two for good measure; have shot about 100 live rounds now and re-measured again last Spring, just because I could: still no bulging that I can find - pretty straight shooter too!)
Video is on my YouTube:

Oh, I might point out that unlike an above description, this one is done with the Barrel Removed from the stock. The Barrel only is secured in the tire.

Great video!
3X normal charge..... Don't think I would want to shoulder that one!
I think I am just going to stick with with the standard charge.....
(Great persona!) Don't know how period correct that outfit is because I am not into that (yet), but dang - that's kool looking!

 

[FlinterNick]

To be quite clear, I don't require full disclosure, but since some people were implying that an unsafe gun was sold, it needed clarification.

It was a reworked project gun I picked up for a small sum, less than 400 I think.

It was reworked too much to the point it had rendered the musket (discriminating general gun) in poor condition. The stock wouldn’t take stain, the teakwood grain was too tight, I ended up using left over dye I had.

The lock internals were soft, I had a very difficult time hardening the parts and the frizzen just would not spark, when I tried to harden the parts, the gave off colors that were not common of high carbon steel, which made me think it was a mixture of alloys, almost like tool steel. I was not going to replace the frizzen if the rest of the lock isn’t adequate.

Upon inspection of the barrel what at first seemed like a very thick heavy .75 caliber barrel ended up being drilled off center causing one side of the barrel wall to be almost muzzle thin, this is just not fixable.

Good thing there is a market for fake guns like Denix, I ended up getting around 300 with the bayonet and sling, its in someone’s office collecting dust.

The last Indian gun I worked was basically just a modification to the lock to make the gun seem more authentic, there was a slight gap in the breech plug because the plug wasn’t threaded all the way down. the barrel seemed ok, over polished and a touch hole was drilled through to the other side, so there was about a .25 mm hole to the other side (interior) this gun I didn’t own, but I did give back with a poor option for shooting. The owner had said he shot it a few times with no issues.

NG

 

[RAEDWALD]

FWIW the 1775 Bess Musket Proof charge was 642 grains. In modern powders I routinely used 124 grains/8 grams down the barrel as per the 1840's service load of comparable powder.

The British and German proof loads far exceed the Loyalist (allegedly per Italian) loads and the Germans do it 5 times. Indian muskets still routinely pass.

 

[FlinterNick]

Would think any expert would understand sold as ‘impossible to shoot’ means it was sold as ‘impossible to shoot’.
View attachment 14565

Yes, my intention Was it can’t be fired.

 

[springfield art]

Springfield Art; I believe you are speaking about a method such as Loyalist Arms describes when they ship out a non-tested barrel?
I purchased a Naval Issue Early Musket from them a while back, this is what what they said to do and included an instruction sheet - So I made up this video for him, he now says he uses the video to show future customers who choose to test themselves (I added a an extra measurement or two for good measure; have shot about 100 live rounds now and re-measured again last Spring, just because I could: still no bulging that I can find - pretty straight shooter too!)
Video is on my YouTube:

Oh, I might point out that unlike an above description, this one is done with the Barrel Removed from the stock. The Barrel only is secured in the tire.

Looks great! Smart to test barrel by itself; won't harm wood if it blows! I always think back to the simple instructions in the Dixie catalog; seemed to make sense.

 

[Mad L]

Looks great! Smart to test barrel by itself; won't harm wood if it blows! I always think back to the simple instructions in the Dixie catalog; seemed to make sense.

Loyalist Arms says to always proof with Stock removed as they will guarantee the barrel for proofing but Not the stock.

 

[Mad L]

(Great persona!) Don't know how period correct that outfit is because I am not into that (yet), but dang - that's kool looking!

Thanks Griz44Mag.
The persona is from my pirate yarrs, seeing as how it was a sea musket being proofed *lol*
Other then a few 'dandy liberties' the whole persona is period correct for a late 1600 to early 1700 sea fareing buccaneer/pirate. The shoes are Loyalist Arms replicas from the Whyda, slops I obtained from the Master & Commander wardrobe annex, the shirt & vest my wife made from linen using period patterns.

But alas, I have left the sea behind and tooken to the hills now, in search of beaver....

 

[Mac79]

I do think using something like a small Mag Lite to slide down and inspect a bore before a reenactment is a great suggestion and much easier to do for Muskets than for Rifles, though pretty small diameter Mag Lites are available and may fit most rifles. Since I've been out of battle reenactments for about 10 years now, I don't know if that is being commonly done. Not sure how one would come up with a "standard inspection criteria" where the bore would be considered too dirty, though?

Gus

If spectators are around, a small mirror on a decently sunny day is as bright as the brightest LED cop flashlight. A little finagling is required, but it works- laughed until I saw it ( granted i use them on buried valve boxes and the like, wider but much deeper)

 

[Mac79]

( not a fan of imports myself, just sharing semi-useless knowledge)

 

[Artificer]

If spectators are around, a small mirror on a decently sunny day is as bright as the brightest LED cop flashlight. A little finagling is required, but it works- laughed until I saw it ( granted i use them on buried valve boxes and the like, wider but much deeper)

Wish I knew that trick almost two decades ago!

I had done some extremely major repair to my old Pedersoli Brown Bess Carbine and brought it to the 18th century Market Faire at Fort Frederick to sell it and later use the money to buy a full length musket. The bore and face of the breech plug were not only clean, but polished, though there were some pits in the bore.

Anyway, when I came to the Inspection Station when first entering the Fort, I was in for a very rude shock. When I bounced my rammer button off the breech face in the bore, it just made a dull thud and did not "ping" or bounce back. Good Grief, I KNEW the bore was super clean and polished, but the rammer would just not bounce and the Inspector wasn't going to pass it to enter the Fort. (I had forgotten I had a custom rammer made for it and I assume the button was dead soft Iron and that's why it didn't bounce.) I didn't have a bore mirror or small penlight on me. After a LOT of explanation on how much I had worked on that Musket and how clean it was, I finally positioned the musket to where the sun shone down the bore and the Inspector could see how clean/polished it was and was allowed to bring it into the Fort Area.

Long story short, I sold the musket to a Sutler I had seen earlier before I got to the end of one row of Sutlers and was able to buy the full length Pedersoli not much later.

Gus

 

[springfield art]

If spectators are around, a small mirror on a decently sunny day is as bright as the brightest LED cop flashlight. A little finagling is required, but it works- laughed until I saw it ( granted i use them on buried valve boxes and the like, wider but much deeper)

I "discovered" the mag-lite thing recently; there's many thin 'key-chain' type lights that are handy for the 'gun show wanderer' types among us!

 

[springfield art]

( not a fan of imports myself, just sharing semi-useless knowledge)

Golly, without "imports" where would we be with repro guns of all types?

 

[springfield art]

Recently just read a forum post here and tons of people are trashing on Indian guns.

Personally, l don’t understand lt. Their ls no way muskets that were hand made 250 years ago are “better” or higher quality than Indian reproductions today. l got a Brown Bess from VeteranArms and lt ls awesome. Does everything l need lt to do. For anyone out their contemplating lt, don’t spend over a thousand dollars on a reproduction musket. You don’t need lt. l can not say anything about Indian manufactures other than VeteranArms because they’re the only ones lve used. But VA muskets are great.

My rant has ended.

I have a nice Bess from India; Udaipur, 1981. Belonged to a guy who was the "Geo. Washington" in the local Trenton,NJ river crossing every Christmas Eve. Not that he used the musket as Gen. George! Anyway, the quality of the bbl. seems very high; I had to have the frizzen hardened & the mainspring 'thinned' as it was too hard to cock. Recently refinished & mildly shaped the stock so the palm swell was more prominent. The nice fellow at VA told me the bbl. date doesn't mean it was 'made' or assembled at that time. (Even though I'd not bought it there.) I'm with you; they didn't have personal injury lawyers so much back then!
I subsequently bought two other muskets from VA; have no experience with Loyalist.

 

[springfield art]

Brandon F does you tube vids on eighteenth century British Army. His work is impressive, and very entertaining. He did one on poor care that some military reenactores give some of their guns.
Reading about old military muskets The US army talked about some God-awful charges tested in old barrels and the barrel stood it. Dixie gunworks and Sam Falada both tested guns with very ridiculous charges. And guns held as long as the barrel did not have an obstruction in it. We read of trade fusils that burst in use, but they were prodded in Englis testing houses before sent to America. I don’t doubt failure was secondary to poor care.
I don’t doubt that the failures attributed to India made guns are caused by misuse and poor care.
If you take a Rice or green mountain barrel, shoot it leave it to rust, misload it, it will fail.

I did Rev War enacting for ten years; the number of rusted, uncleaned muskets I saw even among the higher quality enactors was astounding. So called 'commanders' don't seem to have actual authority over 'troops' regarding maintenance. Each 'regiment' has to follow their own 'culture' of discipline and enforcement.

 

[springfield art]

There have been 5 or 6 verified barrel failures on Indian made guns. I saved the information on all of them when I was thinking about buying one. Unfortunately I no longer have the details. I know there was the Brown Bess pictured above, one flint pistol, a P53 Enfield and a Lorenz musket. There were a couple others but I don't remember exactly what. I also found one Italian made Enfield that had a barrel failure. Now user error may have played a part in at least some of them but I can't say for sure. I just decided against getting one at that time.

Who or what certified organization "verified" the failures? I'm not aware of any testing protocol; we read of such incidents on line, but that's about it. People who are going to spend lots of time and money to 're-enact' should just take the plunge and buy Italian repros right off the bat. I've read that many CW enactment units have a hard-fast rule against the Indian repros from the get-go. Those of us who are individual enthusiasts unrelated to a 'unit' may buy what we wish.

 

[Trot]

Who or what certified organization "verified" the failures? I'm not aware of any testing protocol; we read of such incidents on line, but that's about it. People who are going to spend lots of time and money to 're-enact' should just take the plunge and buy Italian repros right off the bat. I've read that many CW enactment units have a hard-fast rule against the Indian repros from the get-go. Those of us who are individual enthusiasts unrelated to a 'unit' may buy what we wish.

No certified organization was necessary. Photos of barrels split open and the witnesses description are enough to "verify" that it happened.

 

[Stantheman86]

Indian muskets priced themselves out of the market.......$700 for an Indian 1842 Springfield ?? Just get a Chiappa , at least you know it has spare parts support.

 

[Mac79]

Wish I knew that trick almost two decades ago!

I had done some extremely major repair to my old Pedersoli Brown Bess Carbine and brought it to the 18th century Market Faire at Fort Frederick to sell it and later use the money to buy a full length musket. The bore and face of the breech plug were not only clean, but polished, though there were some pits in the bore.

Anyway, when I came to the Inspection Station when first entering the Fort, I was in for a very rude shock. When I bounced my rammer button off the breech face in the bore, it just made a dull thud and did not "ping" or bounce back. Good Grief, I KNEW the bore was super clean and polished, but the rammer would just not bounce and the Inspector wasn't going to pass it to enter the Fort. (I had forgotten I had a custom rammer made for it and I assume the button was dead soft Iron and that's why it didn't bounce.) I didn't have a bore mirror or small penlight on me. After a LOT of explanation on how much I had worked on that Musket and how clean it was, I finally positioned the musket to where the sun shone down the bore and the Inspector could see how clean/polished it was and was allowed to bring it into the Fort Area.

Long story short, I sold the musket to a Sutler I had seen earlier before I got to the end of one row of Sutlers and was able to buy the full length Pedersoli not much later.

Gus

Someone'll have to tell me if it works alright for them...havent shot in yrs and just getting back into hobby. A b-box is at least a cpl " in diameter, but up here water is a minimum of 5' down normally. May not work on hudson valley pieces?