Indian Muskets

[FlinterNick]

The Indian guns are Certainly great for those who enjoy reworking muskets.

The miruko Bess and Pedersols are easy to rework. Depending on how much you want .. the most convincing alteration is reducing the lock panels and adding a sling lug. Sanding off the factory markings is easy too.

 

[Redcoat76]

Hi all I have a variety of Brown Bess muskets I have fired them all. The Indian is always best for reenactors for cost. I own two longland and shortland models. The wood is defiantly cheap Tiek I belive but metal and brass hard ware very good and they have screw in breeches not welded have fired up to 100 grains 2f powder packed very good did same with a ball not to accurate but did good. My two Italians both longland a shortland more cost. Shot better but for cost not two different and my very first My miroku bess Japanese very good old faithful. I even have the pistol nicely done good sparker. I guess what I am trying to say purchase what you are going for. Shooting competition Italian. Reenacting occasionally ball use Indian. As for Japanese not produced any more but good. Thanks for reading my view

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I was thinking of buying one of the really over-sized Bess rejects and making a wall-gun out of it.

Let me know if you get a source for a barrel other than the Rifle Shoppe. I want to build and Amuzette with the carriage. I figure a 1728 LLP Bess from India, without the nose cap, will probably have enough wood to inlet the larger barrel.

LD

 

[Griz44Mag]

FWIW -
The Indian made Bess Long Land I acquired from SHAM66 will put 10 in a row (.735 ball) into a single hole at 25, and only a light scattering at 50. I am told that for a smoothbore, that ain't bad. AND I have a lot of fun with it. I don't need a Ferrarri to cruise on city streets with.
Works great for me....

 

[Harry A]

Have been keen to follow this long discussion of the India-made flinters and though many strong opinions have been propounded, this one offered by Griz44mag rings the bell for me. Thanks.

 

[Sicilian Hunter]

FWIW -
The Indian made Bess Long Land I acquired from SHAM66 will put 10 in a row (.735 ball) into a single hole at 25, and only a light scattering at 50. I am told that for a smoothbore, that ain't bad. AND I have a lot of fun with it. I don't need a Ferrarri to cruise on city streets with.
Works great for me....

Griz,
Is that offhand or from the bench?

 

[Sicilian Hunter]

Have been keen to follow this long discussion of the India-made flinters and though many strong opinions have been propounded, this one offered by Griz44mag rings the bell for me. Thanks.

Harry,
Did you have a model in mind that you were looking at?
For military reenacting? General use?

 

[Griz44Mag]

Griz,
Is that offhand or from the bench?

I did an amount of both on the maiden voyage. The 10 in a row is definitely bench, I am not stable enough standing to that anymore. Now 20 years ago it was a different story to tell.....

 

[Sicilian Hunter]

I did an amount of both on the maiden voyage. The 10 in a row is definitely bench, I am not stable enough standing to that anymore. Now 20 years ago it was a different story to tell.....

Griz,
Still some good shootin'!
Young or old, any kind of rest helps put the lead in the bread basket!

 

[Rockvillerich]

Let me know if you get a source for a barrel other than the Rifle Shoppe. I want to build and Amuzette with the carriage. I figure a 1728 LLP Bess from India, without the nose cap, will probably have enough wood to inlet the larger barrel.

LD

Will do. Are you going to Fort Frederick next week?

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Will do. Are you going to Fort Frederick next week?

Yes but only on Thursday for the day..., family obligations for the weekend.

LD

 

[Rockvillerich]

Stop by camp if you get a chance...home of the "scurvy cure" sporting the colonial Maryland flag, on Water Street where it runs into the main road.

 

[Barrie Dale]

The original Indian rifles had longer barrels on them as they had to pay more furs piled up for them and were usually not as good as what the new arriving people's guns were as well.

 

[tenngun]

I think that’s an old wife’s tale. Guns traded to Indians never or at least rarely seem to be longer r then average at any time.
While Italians, and Central Europeans were making some short guns English Dutch French and Scandinavians gravitated to longer guns. Trade guns like the FDC ere made with barrels typically of fowling and rifles used in America. Later the NWG were seen in the same barrel lengths as trade rifles and guns made for the plainsmen.
I think that story was an explanation for the long Hudson Valley fowling guns that were popular with the Dutch and oft had around fifty inch or longer barrels.

 

[Rudyard]

The long barrel to get more furs is a nonsence and the Guns if basic where of good quality at least from British sourses. I cant say for the opposition who where quite happy to stamp spurious marks in Counterfeit deceptions .They wernt cheap there was only a few shillings in price to a regular service musket. Their customers might be primitive but they wer'nt stupid . Check with Charles Hanson . Rudyard

 

[NorthFork]

The long barrel to get more furs is a nonsence and the Guns if basic where of good quality at least from British sourses. I cant say for the opposition who where quite happy to stamp spurious marks in Counterfeit deceptions .They wernt cheap there was only a few shillings in price to a regular service musket. Their customers might be primitive but they wer'nt stupid . Check with Charles Hanson . Rudyard

The long barrel = more furs needed to buy is a myth. The idea that trade guns were cheap junk is also a myth. Plenty of authorities on this subject agree, including Hanson. For whatever reason there seem to be more myths and misunderstandings in reference to firearms traded with the Indians than any other weapon.

As for reenactors not cleaning their weapons, I believe it. The last one I went to, the muskets were in horrible shape. I don't believe any country of origin would stand a chance.

 

[Griz44Mag]

No matter what brand, type, color, manufacturer or other variant you can think of, failures do occur.
For the same list, you will find someone that will hate speech it, snots exist, and if you don't measure up to their standards, you are wrong and insignificant. Sad our world is like this.... For the ALL AMERICA crowd, what do you drive and how many foreign parts are in it? The second most expensive thing you own is likely 80% or more made in third world countries. That does not make them bad.
I looked at a few, top end to bottom end, before getting my India made Bess. The gloom and doom some say exists, just doesn't. For me, it works as it should, shoots great and is pretty accurate for a smoothie. I have launched several hundred tightly patched .735 round balls out of it, experimented with some buck and ball, packed it with #7 and wads, many of the rounds at near max power. It works and is reliable. I don't count threads, I do enjoy our history and our sport.

 

[Rudyard]

Grizz Your quite right re India muskets and related items I spent a lot of time in India endeavouring to build up a trade in manufactured locks & buying doubles & falling blocks & Goodies in general .This was early 70s The various Maharaja s were selling off guns since they no longer got our pensions and the Govt rather obligeing them to sell off stuff . I took tea with three Maharaja,s in a day in their crumbling Palaces ..However the potential of getting locks powder flasks ect made seemed worth persueing Accordingly I took out such items includeing a wheellock . . There is NO doubt that the actual artisan who makes such things can do very good work despite incredibly poor tooling and conditions .BUT they cant read or speak English. generally speaking and all commerce is run via the merchants . Who basically go by the' code of the West' and focus on the minimum payments for the artizans and max profit for the merchant . The Rupee is their only consideration . You took a pattern in they got it farmed out the merchant nickel & dimes the last pice (cent) out of the makers so he turns out a cheap offering which if it sells . Cheap as chips is what you tend to get . Clearly Royalist Arms have perseveared and much better guns result today .I took in a double flint conversion shot gun I figured they could copy it so I could offer a double as flint or percussion .But the customs in Bombay wouldn't let me take in up to Cawnpore the Birmingham of India and that's as for as it got till picked it up going home .So much' red tape' bribery gross lack of imagination and an alarming lack of scruples I've seen the most awfull death traps sold to local customers , They had his rupees, he had his death trap and beaming like a Cheshire cat off goes the customer in his rickshaw.
So I gave it up "Youth was cheap wherefore we sold it ' ,Gold was good we hoped to hold it , And today we know the fullness of our gains. From Kipling' s' Xmas in India ' Seemed fitting .BUT I was an expierience priceless really . I also had numbers of deemed faulty muskets & blunderbusses I would by from UK retailers .But Ide work them up ensuring such failings were recified Ide engrave and case harden . Face the steel (frizzen) so they where a regular' fire risk' and naturally flicked them off to the US re enactors! (My own musket was just such a gun and served me well ) Even Chuck Dixon bought one for his shop décor. Ive had Renectators chased me for them . Suffice to say .The Indian items CAN be good . Could be better but for the price there generally fine .Royalist Arms I know are a most dedicated firm and good to deal with . And no I don't have shares Regards Rudyard

 

[dave_person]

Ah Maurice,
You are the best and lend such layer of competence and insight that all on this side of the pond need to hear. I too am a Kipling fan. I still own a first edition collection of his works owned by my grandfather, John Hume Bell, who fought in the second Boer war and was a prisoner of war by the Boers. He revered Lord Roberts who he served under. I have copies of some of his letters from the time of his imprisonment and then release. The Boers treated them well unlike the way some of the later British commanders treated Boer prisoners. As a child, my grandfather would recite "Boots boots boots, tramping up and down again."

dave

 

[Brokennock]

Ah Maurice,
You are the best and lend such layer of competence and insight that all on this side of the pond need to hear. I too am a Kipling fan. I still own a first edition collection of his works owned by my grandfather, John Hume Bell, who fought in the second Boer war and was a prisoner of war by the Boers. He revered Lord Roberts who he served under. I have copies of some of his letters from the time of his imprisonment and then release. The Boers treated them well unlike the way some of the later British commanders treated Boer prisoners. As a child, my grandfather would recite "Boots boots boots, tramping up and down again."

dave

Hmmm. Ain't that something? My other big area of historical interest is the history and fall of Rhodesia, and somewhat South Africa. Can't really follow that interest without at least some time spent on the Boer wars.


And can't be a student of Col. Cooper without some exposure to Kipling. If.....