Indian Muskets

[Artificer]

OK, now I get where you are coming from. Thank you.

Yes, I'm aware that with too small of a charge of smokeless powder in a cartridge case, the powder burns so quickly it seems to detonate rather than deflagrate (burn). However, leaving aside smokeless is a different powder requiring a higher temperature to deflagrate, that is still inside an enclosed cartridge case with very limited space where the oxygen is in a small container (besides what is chemically stored as part of the powder). Therefore the primer flame bounces inside the enclosed cartridge case.

We aren't talking about a small enclosed space inside even a flintlock bore that is coated with fired black powder residue. There is still a large open hole that does not contain the gas pressure, as it would when there is a projectile or barrel obstruction (or inside a cartridge case). Unless the loose powder is very near the breech, that means the only way powder further up the bore is going to be burned is when the hot gas reaches it and ignites it. That means there will be a slower time of total deflagration and therefore lower pressure than had all the loose powder been down at the breech.

Thank you for the discussion.

Gus

 

[arcticap]

Sorry, cut the end off when I posted above.

When you strip everything else away, we are left with the fact there had to have been an obstruction in the bore of the Indian made Musket for the barrel to burst.

Safety Inspections are done immediately before reenactors take to the field for the reenactment to ensure there is nothing in the bore of their Muskets. Such an inspection would have identified any barrel obstruction in the bore before the reenactment began. So that leaves us with two possibilities, as far as I can imagine:

1. A proper safety inspection was not done and there indeed was an obstruction in the bore before the blank firing happened.

and/or:

2. The owner of the musket introduced something into the bore when loading and firing DURING the reenactment that caused the barrel obstruction.

Gus

If the burst wasn't caused by the simple expansion of hot gases colliding with the cement like powder residue that was built up in the bore and partially blocking it, then I think that maybe a good size chunk of that powder residue broke off from the barrel walls and fell down into the breech on top of the powder.
Then when the gun was fired, the loose piece of powder residue slammed into the remaining mass of residue causing an obstruction that blew the barrel.
The hard powder residue was building up in the bore for who knows how long.
Lucky that the residue didn't end up becoming a projectile and hurt someone.
Isn't it in effect similar to creosote which can be as hard as a rock?

 

[Artificer]

Good question. I admit I thought about a large chunk of powder residue breaking off, but then it would still have to seal the bore long enough in one place to cause the gas pressure to split the barrel open. I am not sure such a chunk of carbon could do that, but I find that highly improbable.

To my mind, It is much more likely the bore wasn't safety inspected for an obstruction and/or the shooter introduced an obstruction that could not only block, but seal the bore in one place to cause the barrel failure/split.

Gus

Edited to add: I wonder if the shooter mistakenly left a LIVE cartridge (with a ball in it) in his cartridge pouch and loaded that into the bore during firing? Since reenactors don't ram their cartridges and the ball would not go all the way down the bore, that would make a barrel obstruction that would split open the barrel. However, this is just a guess to explain what could have happened.

 

[Artificer]

Also, if there are not properly trained/experienced safety inspectors at a reenactment, that can lead to huge problems.

At the 125th year Anniversary Reenactment of First Manassas (Bull Run), I was one of the Safety Inspectors and though we did not decide ahead of time on a "Chief" Inspector, I took that responsibility and since many people knew I was both and Active Duty Armorer and worked NSSA guns, no one objected. I gave a class on how to properly inspect the locks (especially checking the Half Cocks) and other things. I also introduced having the troops we inspected open their cartridge boxes so we could check the blank cartridges. If all the cartridges were the same, we only checked a few in each box. However, if they appeared non-uniform at all, then we checked every cartridge to ensure someone had not mistakenly left a live round in the box. Yes we sprung the rammers, but also had them pop a cap with the muzzles close to the ground. We watched the grass below the muzzles to ensure there were no bore obstructions. With these procedures, we had no accidents.

However, I have seen some Inspectors before or since who did not apply all the safety procedures mentioned and could see the potential for problems.

Gus

 

[Rockvillerich]

I'm beginning to believe it may be safer to just get a rubber gun to reenact with. You could just run around and say BANG! and be just as happy. Heck, you could take a casting from an original gun and have something that looks far better than an Indian musket, be safer, and not break when you fall on it.

Yeah, I traded my Italian musket for a rubber one for a scene when we were filming 'The Patriot'. I could club my buddies with it...it was really light, and didn't have to clean it when we were done.

 

[Artificer]

Sorry to go OT, but I bet you have some interesting stories from when you were in the filming of "The Patriot."

Gus

 

[toot]

burst barrels are usually operator failure. you can have guns that are 100's of years old and still shootable. not blown up.

 

[Rockvillerich]

Please understand this is a discussion and not an argument and I read your post with interest.

Yes, loose black powder is going to ignite faster than when confined in a barrel with a projectile ahead of it. However, when the loose powder is not all down in the breech and is throughout the bore, I can't see how it would all "flash ignite" at the same time. Instead, the powder near the breech will ignite and send forward hot gas which will in turn ignite the powder further up the bore. That actually means it will burn over a longer period and since even a dirty bore has a large hole with nothing to retain the gas pressure, I can't see how there would be a spike of pressure?

The first day I met and began the recruiting process with my old unit, the Major's Coy of the 42nd RHR, the Black Watch; I was actually very pleased to see they were wiping their barrels and locks down after each blank firing during the day and then after a number of blank firings, swabbed/cleaned the bores of their muskets that afternoon/evening. Now this kind of maintenance is required for "British Regular" Reenactor Units as it was and remains expected our muskets always look ready to stand inspection. I will say I found this generally true of other British Units as well.

Gus

Don't know the physics, but I can tell you first hand that muskets having actually burst involved guys firing where the powder was spread out in the bore, and obstructions.

 

[rich pierce]

If I can glean something from 7 pages on Indian muskets it seems:

1) make sure any Indian musket is well breeched
2) if firing blanks make sure it gets cleaned well after every use
3) slam the butt to make the black powder settle to the breech.

 

[Melnic]

So, one of the bad habits of these reinactors is to not clean the musket? Don't they do inspections prior to joining the line where they verify the muskets are empty and they can put a ramrod all the way down? what might be a typical obstruction?

"If I can glean something from 7 pages on Indian muskets it seems:

1) make sure any Indian musket is well breeched
2) if firing blanks make sure it gets cleaned well after every use
3) slam the butt to make the black powder settle to the breech."

4) Drop a bore light down shining up and inspect visually after complete cleaning. If you have one, use a borescope. But that is true IMO for ANY muzzleloader.

 

[tenngun]

If I can glean something from 7 pages on Indian muskets it seems:

1) make sure any Indian musket is well breeched
2) if firing blanks make sure it gets cleaned well after every use
3) slam the butt to make the black powder settle to the breech.

Burned black powder residue is the most corrosive compound known to humans. Well maybe I exaggerate just a tiny bit. However I treat it as if it were so. Even just demonstrating a flash in the pan the barrel gets a damp swab, a couple of dry swabs and an oiling, with just attention paid to the touch hole, and then cleaning and wiping of the lock don’t treat any gun as any different then a ten thousand dollar bench copy.
I made a PVC-C hand cannon one time. I noted a .50 ball would drop in the hole well. So I glued a cap on, drilled a touch hole and loaded 30 grains three f behind an unwaged unpatched ball and set if off with a fuse. It held. Only shot it once. Provided there is no obstruction and no week rusted hole in the bore the pressure relief valve for a gun will always be the bore and the relitivly light resistance of the ball.

 

[Artificer]

Don't mean to criticize anyone, but I wonder if slapping the side of the stock really causes more powder to fall near the breech? I admit I don't know, but did it after priming and shutting the pan and then slapping it on the way to placing the butt on the ground to load the rest of the charge in the barrel. I THINK it won't help much if there is high humidity on that day, but not sure otherwise.

I do think using something like a small Mag Lite to slide down and inspect a bore before a reenactment is a great suggestion and much easier to do for Muskets than for Rifles, though pretty small diameter Mag Lites are available and may fit most rifles. Since I've been out of battle reenactments for about 10 years now, I don't know if that is being commonly done. Not sure how one would come up with a "standard inspection criteria" where the bore would be considered too dirty, though?

Gus

 

[Heelerau]

Why don't these chaps clean their muskets after each outing like the rest of us do , or should do?

 

[mark/wi]

Heelerau, Very good ? Mark

 

[Artificer]

I have been thinking about the fact the North South Skirmish Association actually has a Ordnance Committee where manufacturers/importers/distributors have to submit at least one of each and every model of ML Gun to be approved, before it can be used in their competition. If the gun/guns don't pass their test, they aren't approved and can't be used in their competition. Now part of the inspection is historical accuracy, but a VERY important part is safety and mechanical operation. What this has done over the years has saved Skirmishers a HUGE amount of problems with the poor/bad quality Italian, Spanish and other foreign and even domestically made guns.

Now, I in no way expect such an Ordnance Committee could be set up for Flintlock Muskets for All Reenactors as the organization/s is/are normally very informal. I do know some groups forbid certain guns/manufacturers, though sometimes that can be too restrictive if it is based only on where the guns were made. I am intrigued if some group like the Brigade of the American Revolution has a written inspection and/or arms inspection procedure that may be useful in choosing/inspecting an Indian Musket?

Gus

 

[dave_person]

Recently just read a forum post here and tons of people are trashing on Indian guns.

Personally, l don’t understand lt. Their ls no way muskets that were hand made 250 years ago are “better” or higher quality than Indian reproductions today. l got a Brown Bess from VeteranArms and lt ls awesome. Does everything l need lt to do. For anyone out their contemplating lt, don’t spend over a thousand dollars on a reproduction musket. You don’t need lt. l can not say anything about Indian manufactures other than VeteranArms because they’re the only ones lve used. But VA muskets are great.

My rant has ended.

Hi,
Your rant is over and mine just begins. Your assertion that a modern made India-made Bess is made as well as the originals is incorrect. You obviously have never seen an original Bess that is in good condition after 250 years or taken one apart. I know original Besses, repros, and many modern custom builds really well and your statement is flat out wrong. I cringe whenever I see a re-enactor hold an India-made gun up to the public as an example of the firearms our ancestors used. I get the fact that they are affordable and many folks cannot afford a better and historically accurate gun. I also cringe when they hold up Pedersolis and Mirokus as well because they are not showing the public what 18th century tradesmen could and did do. Whenever I read the many posts on this forum discussing the vicissitudes of various commercial reproductions, I am eternally grateful that I will never have to own one. I have no real worries about the safety of barrels on India-made guns. I think that issue is a red herring. I do have issue with the quality control on locks and have repaired over 10 India-made Bess and French musket locks that were unsafe because of lack of hardening and poor fitting. Regardless, I really don't care if someone buys an India, Italian, or Japanese repro because there may be very good reasons for it. However, I draw the line when someone tries to claim they are just as good as the originals. That is simply an expression of ignorance and disrespectful of those skillful and conscientious makers long ago.

dave

 

[tenngun]

I think it’s the quality of the metal used in the barrels that’s refrerd to when saying an India gun compares to an original. Not the fit and finish. Although I have seen some originals that were not, shall we say, the best examples of the gun makers art. I am put in mind of the famous quote about a kings musket able to hit the figure of a man at eighty yards if not ‘illy bored, as many of them are’

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

I'd trust an original Bess barrel over a modern India made barrel.
Along and about 1981 or so I went to a gun show where a guy had two 2nd model Bess's on his table,in Fabulous condition. Your choice, $945.00. Unfortunately I was making $4.50/hr back then so it might as well as been a million dollars. I did pick up a 3rd model shortly after that for $250 and shot it for many years. Exceptional gun, 10X what these India made guns are. Shot a .760 ball and 95gr powder, recoil knocked my hat off every time I pulled the trigger!

 

[Grenadier1758]

So, one of the bad habits of these reinactors is to not clean the musket? Don't they do inspections prior to joining the line where they verify the muskets are empty and they can put a ramrod all the way down? what might be a typical obstruction?

"If I can glean something from 7 pages on Indian muskets it seems:

1) make sure any Indian musket is well breeched
2) if firing blanks make sure it gets cleaned well after every use
3) slam the butt to make the black powder settle to the breech."

4) Drop a bore light down shining up and inspect visually after complete cleaning. If you have one, use a borescope. But that is true IMO for ANY muzzleloader.

Yes, they do perform inspections on the muskets before the troops are allowed to enter the field. However, the inspection requires the soldier to "ping" the ramrod. In most cases, the 1/4" diameter ramrod passes the fouling and pings on the breech. I have seen some people that just don't seem to want to clean their musket. After all they are just shooting blanks. Well, as we have seen in the pictures of the musket that burst in 2007, cleaning is important. In my unit, I conduct the musket inspection with a bore sized Jag and patch. In needs to slide to the breech and get pulled out without a lot of effort. One of the nock lights or fishing bobber lights can be dropped down the bore to check for clearance. It will take longer than the standard practice of pinging the ramrod. I'd recommend that each participant run a patched jag down the bore, verify that the rod goes to the breech and can be removed. Heavy fouling will trap the patched rod with jag. I gave a demonstration of cleaning once and I took a musket at random from our bell of arms. Got the patch stuck in the bore. We needed lots of solvent and a lot of work to get that barrel clean. We got lots of excuses such as the event was over, everyone was in a rush to get home and the musket got put away dirty. As was pointed out there are very few more corrosive substances than black powder fouling. The unit is getting better on cleaning the musket, but there is still a long way to go.

 

[Columbus]

I have been thinking about the fact the North South Skirmish Association actually has a Ordnance Committee where manufacturers/importers/distributors have to submit at least one of each and every model of ML Gun to be approved, before it can be used in their competition. If the gun/guns don't pass their test, they aren't approved and can't be used in their competition. Now part of the inspection is historical accuracy, but a VERY important part is safety and mechanical operation. What this has done over the years has saved Skirmishers a HUGE amount of problems with the poor/bad quality Italian, Spanish and other foreign and even domestically made guns.

Now, I in no way expect such an Ordnance Committee could be set up for Flintlock Muskets for All Reenactors as the organization/s is/are normally very informal. I do know some groups forbid certain guns/manufacturers, though sometimes that can be too restrictive if it is based only on where the guns were made. I am intrigued if some group like the Brigade of the American Revolution has a written inspection and/or arms inspection procedure that may be useful in choosing/inspecting an Indian Musket?

Gus

This is an excerpt from the N-SSA list of approved weapons:

All firearms, barrels, and processes listed in this document are approved by the Board of Directors for use in shooting activities of the North-South Skirmish Association, Inc. They have received “Production Approval”, which means that as manufactured they are pre-approved for skirmish use. An arm or barrel which has been altered or modified must be submitted to the Small Arms Committee for individual approval and must be issued a Small Arms Committee approval card before it can be used in a skirmish. It is the responsibility of the skirmisher to find out if planned or executed changes might void the existing approval of an arm or a barrel, and to submit altered production arms and/or barrels to the Small Arms Committee for consideration. If you are considering making any changes to an approved arm or barrel it is good practice to discuss it first with a member of the Small Arms Committee. 2. The Small Arms Committee must individually approve custom-made arms for which the maker does not have production approval, and a Small Arms Committee individual approval card must be carried for that arm as evidence of that approval. Failure to have an approval card for a non-production-approved replica firearm will cause the disqualification of the shooter and/or the shooter’s competing company, with appropriate penalties. It is the responsibility of the skirmisher to submit any custom-built arm for which there is no production approval to the Small Arms Committee for consideration