Invest/Euroarms Hawkin misfiring cap revisited.

[torontoalex]

Hi folks,

I have had a consistent problem ever since I inherited my father's Hawkin replica.

I think I caused the problem. When I first took the gun out, I shot 10 shots in a row, without cleaning between shots. On the next shot, something (bad) happened and the hammer was shot backwards and cocked itself.

At this point I had no idea anything was wrong, so I tried another shot and it never fired properly again.

I have noticed 2 (possibly 3) issues:

1) The hammer appeared to be slightly off center. From my recollection it had always been like this. So far off the side that the inside of the hammer would rub the no 11 caps. I had a smith bend the hammer back sideways and it is now (better) centered.

2) The drum is ever so slightly bulged. I can not measure with a caliper as the bulge is parallel to the casting on the opposite side, but if I put a straight edge on it, I can see maybe .005" bulge.

3) Not sure how to measure the main spring strength, but I may have messed it up when it "backfired" the cock. I read somewhere on the internet that if you can hear the main spring "click" when cauking the gun, it may be on it's way out. When I dissasemble the lock, removing the fly and all, I can still hear the spring "click" when cocking. If someone can tell me where to get a new one, I would love to try and change it out.

The rifle is very clean and always has been. I have taken the lock off and lightly oiled the little bits here and there.


I can not install a Four Winged Musket Cap Nipple as the casting sits a bit higher around the milled "flat" around the nipple hole. The only alternative is to possibly grind it down until I can get it to seat properly.


This is my main question: Can I use Four Winged Musket Caps with my No 11 nipple???


I have (empty) fired 10 caps in a row and it works great. Is this dangerous? Can it cause inconsistent accuracy? What's the worse thing that can happen?


Happy thanksgiving to all in the US!

-Alex in Toronto

 

[mooman76]

If hearing click when cocking is something bad then I have allot of bad guns. First time I heard that one. You didn't mention the loads you were using. Cocking when firing could mean one of 2 things. Nipple needs replace because the center hole is getting enlarged and letting too much back pressure through(most likely) or too heavy of charges.
Nothing wrong with firing ten times in a row without cleaning if your gun/loads will handle that. I wouldn't try using musket cap nipples on a #11 nipple. If you really want to go that route I would get the proper nipple but I wouldn't do that either. It was made for #11s and that is what I would stay with.

I assume you mean that your gun hasn't been acting right since is meaning it is still cocking when firing but you didn't really say. Firing ten caps in a row is not dangerous. Not sure why you would want to.

 

[frogwalking]

Something bad happened to kick the hammer back on your 10th shot. Is it possible that you double loaded the rifle? It is not an uncommon thing to do, even for someone who has shot a muzzle loader quite a bit, if they are distracted while loading. Perhaps a double load of powder?

I am not familiar with the Investarms rifle. However, many of them have coil springs. It is rare for these to have problems, (I think). Also, every Hawken replica I have seen has a snail bolster and not a drum. I don't know how one would measure a bolster, or see such a small inconsistency as you have reported. If it does have a drum and nipple, the bulge should be easy to measure by removing the barrel and nipple, and using your calipers. If there is a bulge, take it back to your gunsmith for a careful inspection. Another, more adventuresome way to check it is to proof test it. You tie the gun down to a tire, load it very heavy, typically double powder charge, and fire with a long string. (preferably from behind something solid)

I would replace the nipple under any circumstance as it sounds like the hole in it may have burned to a larger than original size. This is the normal result of lots of shooting.

If you want to use musket caps, you must buy a nipple specifically designed for them. I think they might require a heavier hammer hit than a standard #11, so if you do have a weak spring, this is not the way to go.

Good luck, and be careful.

 

[mooman76]

I forgot to say something about the drum bulge. I've never heard of it happening but maybe someone else has. Maybe the way it was manufactured. Maybe worth a gunsmith to look at it. Not a fun day if the drum gives away and flies out. Can be right dangerous. Maybe worth replacing. I have a Investarms Hawkin and it doesn't have a drum, like mentioned, it has the snail bolster.

 

[torontoalex]

Sorry I may have described it wrong. I meant the breach that is threaded into the barrel is slightly bulged.

I have fired the gun many times since but my main problem is the no 11s not going off after a couple of shots. I've tried many new nipples and it's not the nipple. The only way to get consistent cap detonation is using four winged musket caps on the no11 nipple. However I haven't tried on a charge yet. If you say that is not a good idea I won't do it.

 

[mooman76]

Make sure your caps are going on all the way. Do they go off on a second try? If they aren't going off every time it's a problem and can be fixed. Also make sure hammer is going all the way down and hitting squarely on the nipple. What kind of caps are you using?

 

[frogwalking]

The fact that you had someone bend the hammer may be a clue. It may not be hitting the nipple, and thus the cap square, that is, may be only contacting on one edge of the nipple. Lots of people, even gunsmiths, are not familiar with black powder firearms.

The musket caps will not stay on the no. 11 nipple when the hammer is cocked, if you are moving at all, and the fire from it may not be going down the small nipple. You need a musket nipple for musket caps. If the hammer is not hitting the nipple squarely, the larger nipple will make the situation worse. (If the hammer spring is strong enough, the cap should fire every time no matter if the hammer hits square or not.)

For the "bulge, we need a picture to know what you are talking about.

 

[don hepler]

First, I can't understand, what competent gunsmith would be bending a hammer, and not notice a bulge in the drum, very close to the nipple location, in which he was trying to adjust the alignment. Second, I cannot imagine a bulge, in the drum. So, we may, or may not have a bulge in the drum, the gunsmith has straighten the hammer, to contact the nipple correctly, and it is consistently setting off the caps. Why, would you be considering a different ignition system? What did the gunsmith say about the hammer blowing back? The hammer clicks, going to full cock, because the sear is passing over the fly and half cock notch. What did the gunsmith say about the clicking? In fact, why wouldn't a competent gunsmith, check this rifle, before giving it back to you? If my questions sound a little harsh, it's because I do gunsmith work and was a machinist for 30 plus years, and gunsmith work, like this, ticks me off.

 

[torontoalex]

In my original post, i mentioned with seer removed, you can still hear a clicking sound.

The gunsmith didnt notice the bulge cause its .005-.010.

He gave me the gun back after firing about 5 caps. I was satsfied and left.

The caps are on properly. I am using no11 caps on a no11 nipple. Brand new caps and nipple. About half dont fire.

 

[oldarcher]

I am slightly confused, a normal condition for me....is the breech plug bulged or is the drum bulged? It makes a big difference!!!
If the bulge is on the drum, (the part the nipple screws into) that is an easy part to replace and install a new nipple also when replacing the drum. (in 40+ years shooting BP I have never seen that happen) If the breech plug is bulged the plug MUST be replaced by a competent gunsmith who understands BP rifles. The plug is also easy to replace but it must be correctly sized as it must contact both the inside and outside of the barrel properly and be indexed correctly to the top flat.
A hammer kick back indicates strong blow-back thru the nipple. Having hammer blow-back is NOT a normal condition and indicates a nipple with a flash hole that is very enlarged or a double loaded shot. Since you mention "bulges" I would guess that it was double loaded.
I would retire the rifle as the cost and possible danger of internal stress faults in the barrel would not be worth the risk of repairing it and having it fail when shooting and it killing you.
Hang it on the wall and enjoy looking at it.

 

[mooman76]

What brand of caps? The thing is with caps, #11 of one brand is not the same size as #11 with another brand. Same goes with nipples. They have minuet differences in size and the way they taper. If a cap goes on and looks right, it still may not be going on all the way if the cap is slightly smaller or the nipple has a different taper or slightly bigger. Thus it might not fire on the first strike but the on the second because the first strike push the cap down all the way but not enough force to fire. You may know this already, I don't know.
This is just for your general info. If you say it's fitting proper then I have believe you.
I can't say about the bulge because 5-10 thous. isn't very much but I am not a Smith. Can't say about the click either because once again I am not a smith but I have never heard of hearing a click being a problem before.

 

[AZbpBurner]

Several things mentioned, especially the bulging breech, drum/snail, or whatever it is, plus the hammer being kicked back upon firing make me suspect that smokeless powder, or something other than black powder was used to cause these conditions.

What powder are you actually using?

 

[torontoalex]

Here is a link to the bulge I am refering too. It is very exagerated because of the light in the back. As I said, about .010-.005.

Bulged breach.

I absolutely know for a fact that the load was no more than 90 grains. The only cause for the bulge in my mind is because I did not clean at all for 10 shots using FFg. If you tell me the barrel is compromised I know I can purchase an american threaded barrel that is most likely identical to the Euroarms.

I had no idea that one brand of no11 caps might not fit another brand nipple. They are very tight and I have cocked and recocked many times on multiple caps and when one fail, it fails constantly.

I am using CCI no11 magnum fitted to a Oregon Mike's (uncle mikes?) nipple. The nipples are dated from the 80's original new packaging. I've opened up 3-4. They are clean (stainless?).

 

[mooman76]

Sounds more like you have some bad caps if you have tried restrikes and they still don't go off. That is if you think it looks like it's hitting square. Hard to tell from the picture on the bulge but don't think it looks that bad. I think I would just shoot it but don't go by me. Maybe someone else will chime in or have a gunsmith that knows his way around muzzle loaders have a look. You're not going cause a bulge though by not cleaning between shots. It happens from either using the wrong powder or short starting (having an air gap between the powder and the ball)it and firing. My guess would be you never noticed it in the first place and since you are now having problems, you took a closer look and noticed it. I'd try another brand of caps though if you can get them and give them a try.

 

[torontoalex]

I thought the caps were bad too so I bought a new CCI container. Wasn't the caps.

I hope I don't appear to want to contradict everyone, but I have been trying to fix this thing on and off for 2 years.

Here's a link to a video of the spring clicking without the frizen:

Clicking spring.


If anyone knows where I can find a new coil spring please let me know. It appears the big m/l companies no longer produce these, or replacement parts. Just a year or two ago bass pro shop had new m/l that looked just like mine for $250.

 

[torontoalex]

FFg.

I haven't done anything stupid other than not clean between shots.

 

[torontoalex]

I just found a Thompson Center Mainspring at Dixie Gun Works and ordered one. I'll see if that makes a difference.

 

[mooman76]

I don't clean between shots either, usually unless it warrants it. I normally use spit patch. It kind of swabs as you load. Some lubes need to be swabbed after use or maybe after several uses. When I use bore butter I usually have to swab about every 3 shots or accuracy starts to go south quick. Hope the new spring solves the problem.

 

[don hepler]

Okay, I think I see our problem. We're having difficulty solving your problems, because you're not referring to the parts of the gun correctly, and that's okay, we'll work thru it. First, your rifle does not have a drum, and you cleared that up with the picture of the raised area of the breech plug. Next, in your first post you did not say that you had removed the sear, you said you removed the fly and all, and you cleared that up with the video. Your gun does not have a frizzen. Now, any part of the main spring might be clicking, it is connected to the tumbler with a main spring guide rod, which rotates when the hammer is cocked. It might be dry or worn, also the guide rod or spring might be rubbing against a casting mark on the inside of the lock plate, the spring might be clicking inside the "boss" that the guide rod enters. It's difficult to see, even with the video. The bulge or raised area, might be something serious. I'd have the gunsmith look at these problems. It's difficult to diagnose some problems, even with pictures and videos. Good luck.

 

[necchi]

Thanks for the video.
It ain't the spring.
It's the spring guide moving at the small notch it uses in the tumbler.
You have to use full screen to see it, and then it's best seen towards the end of your video.

Look at this video of how simple it is to remove the spring and guide rod.
[youtube]JGdAQBsAAzI[/youtube]
Your "click" is being made by the end of the rod guide I grab with the needle nose.
There is a divot in the tumbler where that end fits,, either that divot and/or the end of the rod is miss shaped or worn.

I would try to file the end of the rod tip just a little bit to reform it to a smaller yet still round end to fit the divot properly and add a drop of oil.

The Bulge;
It looks like you have the straight edge up against a plug that TC uses after they drill the flash channel. that plug can be seen here;

and maybe this will help with the proper names of parts, at least some;

Don't feel bad, we all started learning at one point, we're here to help ya, :wink: