Is pure lead really necessary for muzzle loading balls or bullet in rifle or hand gun ?

[Indy Durtdigger]

Zinc wheel weights are just that, zinc with no lead. Even the smallest amount of zinc accidentally introduced into your pot will ruin your batch.

I use a LEE hardness tester. The scale it came with starts at 8 BHN. So long as I stay in the 8-12 range I've had no issues. Can't say about Minie's though, have the molds but not made any yet.

As far as the comment about multiple shots because the projectile didn't expand on game. I've also hunted with big bore air rifles for years. I know for a fact that a single nonexpanding projectile that also does not generate the hydraulic shock a black powder gun does to the boiler room will cleanly harvest game. If it took multiple shots, there was something else going on.

 

[M. De Land]

Pure 45 cal old clip on wheel weight bullets shot out of a 45-70 at 1800 fps expand to look like a modern jacketed bullet. Impact FPS was probably 15-1700 depending on the range. This knowledge was gained from recovered bullets from several moose shot by my hunting partner over the years. I suspect a roundball would expand as well.

I've recovered many snow bullets shot around 1200 fps or so from rifle and pistol, hard cast mostly and many look like they could be shot again except for the rifling. The soft lead/tin alloy bullets were always bent out of shape.
I've hand lapped a good many barrels and as a consequence have to pour lead laps in a bore and then get them moving before adding lapping compound. I use pure lead because they shrink more when cooled and they move in rifled barrels easier than harder lead/tin/ antimony lap slugs.
There is no question that hard lead alloys raise pressure levels given the same weight and diameter compared to pure lead bullets or balls for the same reason jacketed bullets up pressure from lead bullets of the same weight and diameter. Copper jackets even with dead soft lead cores resist barrel traverse more than lead bullets.
Even where linen patched balls are used pure lead is always recommended mainly for two reasons.
I. They generate the lowest pressure levels.
2. They don't tend to cut patch material at loading.

 

[Spillikins]

Hard lead makes more barrel traverse resistance when engaging the rifling thus raising breech pressure. Increased weight alone will raise pressure let alone rifling engraving adding to the resistance.

The density of a lead alloy will be lower than pure lead, so the weight of an equal sized projectile will be less, not more as you say.
The rifling engraving in a soft pure lead bullet will be greater, so according to your logic a pure lead bullet will have increased resistance.
So I suspect that a pure lead bullet will either create greater pressure or have no effect at all.
Certainly not less, as you opined.

 

[Indy Durtdigger]

I've recovered many snow bullets shot around 1200 fps or so from rifle and pistol, hard cast mostly and many look like they could be shot again except for the rifling. The soft lead/tin alloy bullets were always bent out of shape.
I've hand lapped a good many barrels and as a consequence have to pour lead laps in a bore and then get them moving before adding lapping compound. I use pure lead because they shrink more when cooled and they move in rifled barrels easier than harder lead/tin/ antimony lap slugs.
There is no question that hard lead alloys raise pressure levels given the same weight and diameter compared to pure lead bullets or balls for the same reason jacketed bullets up pressure from lead bullets of the same weight and diameter. Copper jackets even with dead soft lead cores resist barrel traverse more than lead bullets.
Even where linen patched balls are used pure lead is always recommended mainly for two reasons.
I. They generate the lowest pressure levels.
2. They don't tend to cut patch material at loading.

In a breechloader and cap and ball I agree with all that as a true statement. In a muzzle loader I'm not so sure. A projectile that's too hard would have the opposite effect. If it can't obdurate and fill the bore it will allow excess gas leakage past the projectile causing velocity/pressure loss, poor accuracy, leading, etc.

 

[tenngun]

It has worked fine in my long range Black powder cartridge barrels at this level of hardness. These are solid base bullets in the 500 plus grain range but I have not tried it with hollow base minie type bullets to see if the skirts expand.
I think perhaps for revolvers it may be a bit hard on the loading levers as I try to use the most pure lead I can find in my used lead supply for those balls but am sure most of my range scrap is more than 5 BHN.
If it loads without undo stress to the loading lever than I see no reason not to use it my self as the cylinder and barrel won't care in a well kept and properly maintained arm.
It must be remembered that this is hand loading and one must weigh any risk of using anything but pure lead that is recommended by any muzzle loading authority which I am not.
Muskets often have quite thin barrels particularly vintage ones so the additional pressure associated with using other than pure lead must be factored into the safety margin.
Always keep the safety factor in mind when experimenting with other than pure lead for muzzle loader use.

Not arguing here, just a question
In a musket if shooting an alloyed ball is not an alloy lighter, and this would have lower pressure?
I’ve always shot lead I could scratch with a finger nail, and bought what I’m told is pure
Romans could smelt pure lead I THINK most historic ball would be pure. However lead is often found with zinc or silver. I wonder how much trans frontier local lead was poorly smelted in the old days and folks were shooting hard ball

 

[The Crisco Kid]

I've recovered many snow bullets shot around 1200 fps or so from rifle and pistol, hard cast mostly and many look like they could be shot again except for the rifling. The soft lead/tin alloy bullets were always bent out of shape.
I've hand lapped a good many barrels and as a consequence have to pour lead laps in a bore and then get them moving before adding lapping compound. I use pure lead because they shrink more when cooled and they move in rifled barrels easier than harder lead/tin/ antimony lap slugs.
There is no question that hard lead alloys raise pressure levels given the same weight and diameter compared to pure lead bullets or balls for the same reason jacketed bullets up pressure from lead bullets of the same weight and diameter. Copper jackets even with dead soft lead cores resist barrel traverse more than lead bullets.
Even where linen patched balls are used pure lead is always recommended mainly for two reasons.
I. They generate the lowest pressure levels.
2. They don't tend to cut patch material at loading.

We built a 4x4x8 bullet trap that we blew full of snow. We saved a lot of lead for remelting and the study of the bullets was interesting. Also have done a lot of barrel lapping like you mention and the pure lead is best. It can be "upset" as it's used to compensate for wear. Straight wheelweight bullets I consider as not too hard compared to the water dropped variety. I can't recall off the top of my head but I think straight wheelweights are similar to 1/20 tin/lead. I've not tried them in my muzzleloaders simply because I never had a good reason to. If I wanted the most in penetration I wouldn't hesitate to give it a try though.

 

[M. De Land]

The density of a lead alloy will be lower than pure lead, so the weight of an equal sized projectile will be less, not more as you say.
The rifling engraving in a soft pure lead bullet will be greater, so according to your logic a pure lead bullet will have increased resistance.
So I suspect that a pure lead bullet will either create greater pressure or have no effect at all.
Certainly not less, as you opined.

You seem to have missed a couple of Key ingredients in what I said and that was bullets of equal weight and diameter of pure lead and lead/tin/ antimony.
I purposely used this parameter as I size all my cast bullets wither soft lead or alloy to barrel groove diameter (remember my chamber reaming posts) there is almost no obturation ( radial bump up diameter) that occurs to fill grooves as they are already filled from groove diameter bullet use so when they engage rifling the diameters will be equal and only the length will differ with the alloy being longer for the same weight which also translates to increased resistance from friction of bore contact.
There is just no way to push a harder,longer lead alloy bullet down bore that has filled the groove diameter , with less friction than a softer one.
Again using the same example between a lead bullet and a copper jacketed bullet. The copper jacket being harder will always produce more breech pressure than a lead bullet often quite a bit heavier than the jacketed number.

 

[necchi]

Good discussion so far @M. De Land, but your topic question is a little deceiving.
You ask about Pure lead,(?) And that stuff is hard to find. More to the point is "soft" vr "hard" right?
The discussions I've seen for decades have always been to not only to recommend "soft" but the most success has been found with the same across most applications with the types of guns used/talked about in this forum.
So at what BHN rating is an alloy still 'soft" enough and at which does it become "hard"? Get where I'm going with this?

It's surprising that with 3000# of bulk scrap lead in your possession, that you don't have a reliable tester to use. They are expensive now-a-days I get that. But with the amount of casting ahead of you, it might be a good investment(?)
I mean honest, scratching with a thumbnail is directly related to how hard ya scratch,, for anyone, pencil test,(?) same thing how hard do ya push the pencil? How about the drop test? Thud or ring sound? (really?) What do you drop it on? The 4's of cement of a fractured 60yr old garage floor or 8"s of concrete at the new factory?

I've been using salvage X-ray room lead for a decade now, I sent a sample to another member that has a tester and it came back at 7-8 BHN, that stuff works fine, shaves rings in my revolvers, and wins trophies with my rifles. Although the guy I sent it to, did say it's a bit hard.
Point is, I don't think it's about "pure' lead,, it's about soft,,

 

[11th corps]

I save my softer lead for casting round balls in my muzzleloaders.
Harder stuff goes to unmentionable bullets and smooth bore round balls.
btw, a buddy of mine got me a bucket full of wheel weights.
About half were softlead, the rest were too hard to dent with a pair of pliers.

 

[Flintlock Whiskey]

Black powder revolvers can be hard to load and even bend or break the loading lever if you try to cram a hard lead ball into the chamber.

I have to wonder what it would do to the frame of a Colt when that ball hits the forcing cone.

 

[The Crisco Kid]

Point is, I don't think it's about "pure' lead,, it's about soft,,

That nails it. I have some "pure lead" from a hospital xray unit. I've always heard that is as pure as it gets. My LBT tester measures it at a BHN of 7-8. The thumbnail test is good enough for what we are doing and all the rest of this conversation is just an academic discussion while we're "sitting around the campfire".

 

[Edm]

I have buckets of old wheel weights. I don’t hunt. I also don’t want to break a rammer. Will they work for a revolver? I am not concerned with expansion. I shoot targets.

 

[M. De Land]

Good discussion so far @M. De Land, but your topic question is a little deceiving.
You ask about Pure lead,(?) And that stuff is hard to find. More to the point is "soft" vr "hard" right?
The discussions I've seen for decades has always been to not only to recommend "soft" but the most success has been found with the same across most applications with the types of guns used/talked about in this forum.
So at what BHN rating is an alloy still 'soft" enough and at which does it become "hard"? Get where I'm going with this?

It's surprising that with 3000# of bulk scrap lead in your possession, that you don't have a reliable tester to use. They are expensive now-a-days I get that. But with the amount of casting ahead of you, it might be a good investment(?)
I mean honest, scratching with a fingernail is directly related to how hard ya scratch,, for anyone,, pencil test,, same thing how hard do ya push the pencil? How about the drop test? Thud or ring sound? (really?) What do you drop it on? 4's of cement on a fractured 60yr old garage floor or 8"s of concrete at the new factory?

I've been using salvage X-ray room lead for a decade now, I sent a sample to another member that has a tester and it came back at 7-8 BHN, that stuff works fine, shaves rings in my revolvers, and wins trophies with my rifles. Although the guy I sent it to, did say it's a bit hard.
Point is, I don't think it's about "pure' lead,, it's about soft,,

I have two hardness testers LBT and Lee. Pure lead is often said to be 5 but is actually more like 4.9.
I have certain alloy mixes for competition use in black powder cartridge competition (midrange). My most used is 16lbs of counter weight lead , 4 of wheel weight lead and 1 of pure tin for a 21lbs pound batch of alloy that typically yields a BHN of 9.
I was given about 1100 lbs of lead cable sheathing which is as close to pure lead as I have ever had and gave some of that to a friend who I taught to cast good bullets.
Tin will harden some what but not nearly as much as antimony. Tin is expensive so is used mostly for castability.
Balls are very easy to cast but large caliber bullets take some experience to get them to drop within 1.5 grains +/- of each other in 500 grain plus bullets. It also takes some quite expensive custom molds made to much higher tolerance than Lyman , RCBS or Lee.
Paul Jones molds were of the highest quality and since he retired I have used Steve Brooks molds which are in the same quality class.

 

[M. De Land]

I have buckets of old wheel weights. I don’t hunt. I also don’t want to break a rammer. Will they work for a revolver? I am not concerned with expansion. I shoot targets.

You may want to reduce your diameters some so you won't have to shear as much lead to seat them. All that is needed is to have enough diameter to cut a complete ring of lead at seating and they will seal up fine.

 

[45D]

I have to wonder what it would do to the frame of a Colt when that ball hits the forcing cone.

All mine are fine. I shoot jacketed hollow points at 1000 + fps
230gr and 250gr

Mike

 

[William Lincoln]

I appreciate the fine points brought up here. Over the
years I have gotten cast balls as a gift and some conical.
Also bought some factory stuff. Maybe I am just an old
toad with poor eyesight, but I have never noticed
"poor performance" from my lead. That said there has
been plenty of piss poor performance by ME.

 

[M. De Land]

Good discussion so far @M. De Land, but your topic question is a little deceiving.
You ask about Pure lead,(?) And that stuff is hard to find. More to the point is "soft" vr "hard" right?
The discussions I've seen for decades have always been to not only to recommend "soft" but the most success has been found with the same across most applications with the types of guns used/talked about in this forum.
So at what BHN rating is an alloy still 'soft" enough and at which does it become "hard"? Get where I'm going with this?

It's surprising that with 3000# of bulk scrap lead in your possession, that you don't have a reliable tester to use. They are expensive now-a-days I get that. But with the amount of casting ahead of you, it might be a good investment(?)
I mean honest, scratching with a thumbnail is directly related to how hard ya scratch,, for anyone, pencil test,(?) same thing how hard do ya push the pencil? How about the drop test? Thud or ring sound? (really?) What do you drop it on? The 4's of cement of a fractured 60yr old garage floor or 8"s of concrete at the new factory?

I've been using salvage X-ray room lead for a decade now, I sent a sample to another member that has a tester and it came back at 7-8 BHN, that stuff works fine, shaves rings in my revolvers, and wins trophies with my rifles. Although the guy I sent it to, did say it's a bit hard.
Point is, I don't think it's about "pure' lead,, it's about soft,,

Many of the folks I competed with order certified lead usually in 16 - 1 , 25 - 1 and 30-1 lead tin ratio with 25-1 the most popular and which most custom molds are lathe bored to using as the shrinkage factor rate.

 

[necchi]

I have two hardness testers LBT and Lee. Pure lead is often said to be 5 but is actually more like 4.9.

OK, then you obviously have experience and know what you have.
So is your topic asking about what works, or is it about validating that harder lead does work?
I ask, because I wonder about this:

It cast well but was a few points harder than pure lead which is a bit under 5 Brinell hardness number. It cast well so I know it was antimony and tin alloyed and drops about 8-9 BHN

How does cast to 5 BHN, change to cast a second time to 8-9 BHN? (that's in your first post).
With your tester(s). At what point does lead move from soft too hard? How does tin, that helps with flow, differ than antimoy, that helps with shrinkage, differ than zinc that helps with oxidation,, all apply too whether pure is needed or not?
And why do I need to keep cast lead in my freezer?

A friend had to scrap his wooden sail boat, asked me if i wanted the 600# keel weight, I turned him down. We're still friends.

 

[M. De Land]

OK, then you obviously have experience and know what you have.
So is your topic asking about what works, or is it about validating that harder lead does work?
I ask, because I wonder about this:

How does cast to 5 BHN, change to cast a second time to 8-9 BHN? (that's in your first post).
With your tester(s). At what point does lead move from soft too hard? How does tin, that helps with flow, differ than antimoy, that helps with shrinkage, differ than zinc that helps with oxidation,, all apply too whether pure is needed or not?
And why do I need to keep cast lead in my freezer?

Pure lead in most reference books has a Brinnell hardness number of 5.
Most of my counter weight lead is lead/tin/antimony that reads 7-8-9 BHN by itself.
I generally add 1 lbs of pure tin to get very good casts and with a few pounds of W/W in a 21 lbs batch usually reads about 9 BHN, A point or two either way is common in a batch this size but works well for good bullet bump up and accuracy.
Pure lead tin mixes will soften in a year if not kept in a freezer that slows the softening process down.
I have found that even a small amount of alloy with antimony in it stabilizes hardness number better than anything else I have found.
I have some W/W hand gun bullets I cast over 20 years ago and are still within 2 BHN numbers of when cast and are left on my bullet cabinet shelf in tin cans.
If the BHN number goes up (not counting heat treating techniques) than tin and or antimony was added.
Most scavenged sources have some antimony in them and it varies.
Two sources I have found to be nearest pure lead are cable sheathing and roof vent lead.

 

[necchi]

OK.
Then what is the point to your topic question? You understand hardness and what it does and how to get there.
This is a forum that recognizes soft lead as being good for these guns.
What BHN represents soft lead to you?
What answer do you seek?

I never even touched the keel of my friends boat, they haven't used pure lead in those for over 100yrs.
I'm just guessing, but that 1 ton crane weight you have is about 20% zinc