Is this the real deal?

[Robert an saa fan]

To add to and correct my first post in this thread:

It did not occur to my senior brain that subject 1860 may be a 3rd Generation as sold by Colt Black Powder Arms, New York City.
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The 3rd Generations had Sam Colts signature engraved and gold filled on the upper back strap. Sent seller a request for pictures of this back strap area. No response so far.

In my owning various 3rd Generation Colts none had Italian i.d. markings anywhere on them. Do own various Armi San Marcos with Colt barrel and cylinder markings and Italian markings.

Picture 11 shows significant damage to the cylinder bolt lead in notches. It is unknown if the action works properly and I would not rely on this seller to provide an accurate answer.

As to value; here is my opinion:

1860 Colt = $325

Italian shoulder stock = $200

Replica black holster = $ 30

Total = $575

 

[Jebidiah Springfield]

Yes I will definitely ask questions here before bidding again.

 

[Jebidiah Springfield]

Good news, I've been outbid. As of right now the bid is $1025, so hopefully the high bidder knows what he/she is bidding on.
I am still curious to hear the response from GB about intentional fraud though.

 

[user 48679]

FWIW, it might not be a fraud, as the stated engraver was working through & after the US Civil War.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterman_Ormsby
I'd want to see if the engraver left his mark in the engraving, though......

 

[kh54]

I've seen exactly one original shoulder stock for the 1860 and it was steel, not brass. Does anyone know if they were offered in both?

The gun and stock are clearly not originals. At least it's clear to me.

 

[Jebidiah Springfield]

Waterman Lily Ormsby (September 9, 1809 – November 1, 1883)

As in DIED in 1883. This gun was made after 1970. this=fraud

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Waterman Lily Ormsby (September 9, 1809 – November 1, 1883)

As in DIED in 1883. This gun was made after 1970. this=fraud

I think the seller is referring to the roll engraved cylinder scene. I guess he thinks that it was hand engraved. Probably not fraud, just ignorance.

 

[sourdough]

I've seen exactly one original shoulder stock for the 1860 and it was steel, not brass. Does anyone know if they were offered in both?

The shoulder stock you may have seen made of steel furniture may have been a repro Armi San Marco Dragoon stock made in the mid 70's. All of the Colt originals had brass furniture. The shoulder stock in question is clearly a repro as is the revolver.

Regards,

Jim

 

[OldMaineWoodsman]

This stuff really irritates me. I wrote this seller explaining my background and pointing out all the examples as to why this is a replica. Some of those were correctly pointed out by members here.

I looked at a lot of Colt pistols and revolvers during my museum career. I also debunked my share of fakes. Mostly based on the artifact's alleged provenance to a famous person.

What is really frustrating other than duping an unsuspecting or new collector or shooter, is the fact that even replica cap and ball revolvers are in high demand. If he was just honest with the description and make it clear that it is a replica he would end up selling it for more than what it's actually worth anyway.

Prior to bidding on an auction ask questions of the seller and always take the time to scroll through the seller's feedback and reviews. In this case, the seller has a number of Negative comments. They make for some interesting reading and they tie into deceptive, misleading descriptions. Do your homework before you bid.

 

[Jebidiah Springfield]

OldMaineWoodsMan

You are 100% correct. Lesson learned.
Here is one of my favorites from reading his reviews:

F
linesntines A+(9)

12/25/2020
886017253
junk selling son of a gripe, I throw away better than these,sent mostly 7.62 , not 308 like listed, lots are not reloadable
Response (left on 01/07/2021):My mom is a nice lady, thanks.


His contact info is bunk.

 

[Capnball]

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/896238843
gunbroker item #896238843 1860 colt "army"

I'm bidding on this one.

Can people please confirm this is an original and not a reproduction?

Thank you in advance :0)

You know what they say.......
"If it seems like too good a deal, it probably is!"

 

[OldMaineWoodsman]

Yes, and notice how the return policy is "Unspecified?" Any reputable dealer would offer a three-day no fire inspection period. Especially on something like an original Colt in that condition.

Finally, $25 Ground shipping? Again, a valuable antique firearm would be shipped insured and you would think or maybe even expect overnight.

 

[Bad Karma]

Just be sure it's not one of the Colt Blackpowder Series.(Modern Colt-marked repros)

3rd generation Colts are considered “real” Colts but obviously nobody is going to pay equal prices for equal condition 1860 NMA revolvers if one is first gen and the other is third gen. First generation revolvers in the condition shown there will bring close to $20,000...

 

[Bad Karma]

I think the seller is referring to the roll engraved cylinder scene. I guess he thinks that it was hand engraved. Probably not fraud, just ignorance.

Not much difference if you’re stuck with the third gen gun...

 

[Jebidiah Springfield]

Hah,
Success, I think a certain critical mass of people contacting that seller has finally broken through.
He just added to the description this is a reproduction based on the serial #.

I think what really happened is it was taking too much of his email time to keep getting told the same thing.

Well done.

 

[OldMaineWoodsman]

For those interested, the seller responded to my inquiry. He has modified the listing to show it as a replica.

 

[OldMaineWoodsman]

We must have posted at the same time. My guess is, he realized that there more educated people out there than he thought, and didn't want to deal with the headache and hassle of a return demand.

 

[Jebidiah Springfield]

Exactly

That'll learn'em

 

[kh0456]

Hah,
Success, I think a certain critical mass of people contacting that seller has finally broken through.
He just added to the description this is a reproduction based on the serial #.

I think what really happened is it was taking too much of his email time to keep getting told the same thing.

Well done.

i was about to say the same thing. I think a number of us here and probably others contacted him. He changed the description to say it was a repro. More then just the serial number. It was just too new. If that was original he would have had a gold mine on his hands. I’m sure he wasn’t trying to rip anyone off. But he should have checked into it before listing it. I wonder if he bought or traded for it as original. Oh brother......
Glad you got outbid anyway.

 

[OldMaineWoodsman]

In his reply to me he stated that he did not realize it was a replica. It was brought in by an "older gentleman on consignment."