Kibler Hawken update,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

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Like I said, this is the first percussion Kibler has made. Maybe not on this forum, but on other forums people have been asking for a percussion lock by him, because his flintlocks are known for quality. Now they have one. It can get wrapped around a Hawken rifle, or bought separately. The days you could buy a Roller or Robbins percussion lock are long gone. Most of the muzzle loaders today are made by the Italians, who never stopped being interested in black powder since the spagetti western days.

Also, Kiblers main focus to me is making very easy to complete kits for people that want to mostly FINISH a rifle themselves. I have heard and experienced the hard to assemble Hawken kits. I'd say he'll get most of his customers from people that have also.

Then there are hunters who remember the Hawken cult back in the 70s, but don't want an Italian gun, nor want to have to assemble a difficult kit requiring a lot of inletting clean up and rasping and filing. But they want a reliable caplock. I'm in the catagory I guess. I'm putting in for Elk this year, and decided to do black powder. Right now all I have is Flintlocks, and too small a bore. I'll need "something", and don't want to worry about a flash in the pan.
 
I’m sorry, guys, but I just don’t buy this notion that the “Kibler Hawken” is going to invite new shooters to the hobby or remove some imaginary barrier by being offered in a percussion ignition system… but I digress.
I think some folks had the same notion when Kibler first introduced his excellent and ground breaking SMR ....which I know firsthand has brought at least six new shooters to the flintlock world just within my small circle.
 
Like I said, this is the first percussion Kibler has made. Maybe not on this forum, but on other forums people have been asking for a percussion lock by him, because his flintlocks are known for quality. Now they have one. It can get wrapped around a Hawken rifle, or bought separately. The days you could buy a Roller or Robbins percussion lock are long gone. Most of the muzzle loaders today are made by the Italians, who never stopped being interested in black powder since the spagetti western days.

Also, Kiblers main focus to me is making very easy to complete kits for people that want to mostly FINISH a rifle themselves. I have heard and experienced the hard to assemble Hawken kits. I'd say he'll get most of his customers from people that have also.

Then there are hunters who remember the Hawken cult back in the 70s, but don't want an Italian gun, nor want to have to assemble a difficult kit requiring a lot of inletting clean up and rasping and filing. But they want a reliable caplock. I'm in the catagory I guess. I'm putting in for Elk this year, and decided to do black powder. Right now all I have is Flintlocks, and too small a bore. I'll need "something", and don't want to worry about a flash in the pan.
BINGO! Did the self appointed "experts" here think that Kibler was building rifles for them? If so that's a bad business plan. 🤣 Maybe some should start up their own muzzle loader shop that produces the CORRECT Hawken reproduction kits, that takes the skill of Leonardo Divinci to complete. It should be a blinding success.
 
I personally would be interested in the Kibler Hawken if it was a full stock flinter…. That’s what I was expecting Jim to be coming out with as a Hawken. I’m sorely disappointed that it’ll be a half stock.

I already have an early TC and an Uberti Santa Fe, so I don’t feel the need for another similar gun.
 
I have three cappers. A CVA Hawken wannabe in 54. My first gun I got over 35 years ago. I neglected for decades before I re-barreled it in 54. That project got me back into muzzleloading. I will forever keep that rifle. I have no attachment to my ArmiSport Kentukian in 45 I bought from a co-workers father in-law who passed along with and a pistol in 45 I have no idea who produced it.
One might see both those guns up for sale soon. I just haven't decided on letting those go yet. I enjoyed assembling my a Kibler SMR in 40 and I truly enjoy shooting that rock lock. Notice I said assembling. I am not a gun builder. From what I have read and I maybe wrong building a Hawken is at a difficulty level more than likely beyond me and my patience. I have always wanted a Hawken. A two key Hawken. I don't give a rats patuttie whether Jim's Hawken accurately represents a particular gun of a historic person. I know what I don't want and that is a overpriced imported generic copy of a Hawken. I really don't care that he has tweaked the fine details to make it a better handling gun. I'm not into reenactment or counting stiches. Some people take this hobby to the next level and thats okay with me. I am just not that guy. Expecting everyone to be the same is not a realistic world. To each his own. I'm pretty sure that Jim's Hawken will be a fine representation of a period gun maybe not praised at the camp but in the woods and on the range it will be a fine implement. I'm in all the way for the Kibler Hawken. Already put my name on the list
 
I've noticed in my life that any time a new product is released, especially a retro product, you mostly get "coulda, woulda, shoulda" comments. Happened with the new Ford Bronco, which had pages of naysayers on forums. While the rest of us bought one and happily use it. The new Colt Python, pages of how the number of vents in the rib are wrong, the stainless finish is not as good as old Pythons. People asking for it to be made in .327 Federal, "...and then I'd buy one..." Same with the new Hawken.
 
I think if I was going to pick just one Hawken, it would be the Kit Carson Hawken. It has the short barrel that many would want with nothing fancy added and is considered by many to be the highest form of Hawken. I think that fooling around with the stock and buttplate shape and fancying up the front of the trigger guard etc. is gonna put it in the realm of the much maligned (and rightfully so) Thompson Center attempt at a Hawken. The finial shaped areas remind me of some of the Italian attempts to fancy up certain muzzleloaders that fail to hit the mark and hurt sales. I'd buy a virtual copy of the Carson Hawken and one for each of my kids, but one with the proposed changes I'd avoid like the plague. I understand lengthening the pull as an option and shorter barrels too since there is one original with a 29" 9/16 barrel, but I'm hoping that the made-up fancy stuff is optional too. I have nothing but respect for Jim, but I think he's starting lean in the wrong direction.
Study original work.
 
I guess if Jim's goal is to just offer a generic somewhat historically correct caplock rifle, that won't be a problem for him, he's already halfway there.
I don't think you understand. What I aim to produce is the best designed and most finely crafted 1850's Hawken styled rifle kits ever produced. I'm certain we'll achieve this goal. So, since I'm not copying an original this becomes "generic" in a derogatory sense? I'm pretty sure, I can defend the vast majority if not all design choices from a historical correctness perspective.
 
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I think some folks had the same notion when Kibler first introduced his excellent and ground breaking SMR ....which I know firsthand has brought at least six new shooters to the flintlock world just within my small circle.
You are so right. Some people are just slow to catch on...

Let me just say this, the response and enthusiasm concerning the upcoming Hawken has probably been greater than our other offerings combine...
 
You are so right. Some people are just slow to catch on...

Let me just say this, the response and enthusiasm concerning the upcoming Hawken has probably been greater than our other offerings combine...
Please offer a percussion option for the SMR in not so far future. I'd love a 40 cal percussion version to go along with the 32, 36, 40, and 45 I have already in flintlock of yours. I know many others would enjoy one too. But I know your plates full now but just asking for a devoted buyer and lover of the SMR rifle maybe in the future. PS I am picking up a walnut 36 on Feb. 8th too haha dang things just find a home in my safe. I got a love for the love slender steel mounted rifles. Heck you could just sell a drum, nipple, lock package for it I'd buy that too.
 
Study original work.
I do, that's why I pointed out the Carson Hawken as a great starting point. The highest original evolution of a Rocky Mountain rifle. All the design work is already done. Never meant to be derogatory or offensive.
 
... Perhaps Kibler should just call it a "Stylized Antebellum Plains Rifle"...
I applaud Jim Kibler for taking on the Hawken. One thing about Jake, Sam, William, Gemmer and others who owned and ran the original Hawken Shop in St. Louis, then Denver, and then back to St. Louis again is that it wasn’t a production of identical Bridgeror Carson rifles. Today we seem to think that all Hawken rifles should be exactly like the Bridger or Carson rifle. And for those who can identically copy the Bridger or Carson rifle including making all the metal parts I think that's great, you are way above my personal skill level. However, if you look at any of the Baird books you’ll see that no two original rifles, whether plains or local trade, are alike. Plus the original Hawken Sop built lighter rifles for the local trade- as Jim referenced in his video. (According to Baird they build many more local trade firearms than plains rifles anyway.) Some of the local trade rifles even had- heaven forbid- one barrel key like a T/C. With the smiths that Jake and Sam employed, each most likely built an individual rifle that differed from one on the next bench over. And I also suspect Jake and Sam took heed in their customers’ comments and criticisms to evolve their work as time and experience went on. Most likely Hawken’s rifles went from full stock flint to half stock percussion in an effort to make a better rifle more suited to the terrain and use based on customer’s comments and experience. I think Jim Kibler is carrying on Jake, Sam, William and Gemmer's tradition of improving on the design where he can but keeping the overall historical accuracy and using his experience and the comments of his customers to design a rifle that is an evolution of one or several rifles that came out of the original Hawken Shop.

I watched JIm Kibler’s video today. It seems that he’s carrying on in the spirit of Jake and Sam. And just like Jake and Sam, he has to run a business so he has to design a rifle that both is historically accurate, meets today's needs.

Personally, I'm still working on a "Hawken" rifle that I hope to finish this spring. I bought the parts set from Pecatonica before the internet was around, and got stumped on how to build it, so it has sat for literally decades. With the resources from the very talented builders on this website and looking at what Jim Kibler explains in his videos I've been able to figure out how to start moving forward with my version of a Plains rifle incorporating many of the historic details and finishes.
 
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I simply can’t help but feel as though a flintlock Hawken is a missed opportunity, their lack of historical prevalence notwithstanding. That’s what I had been been hearing excited whispers about for the past several months. As others have alluded to, maybe Kibler will offer a conversion kit somewhere down the road, and I hope he does.
Can you imagine the firestorm if Jim had decided to introduce it as a flintlock?? 🤯 IT would make the current and ongoing kerfuffle would look like a chipmunk fight.

And I must say this Forum is Chuck full of d*cks here you almost don’t want to even post anything because the ones who live to be on this site twenty four hours a day have no life except for this they will take your words out of context and want to argue with a smart mouth siting in there basement. I do know what you mean.
I don't think that behavior is nearly as prevalent as you seem to think.

Maybe some should start up their own muzzle loader shop that produces the CORRECT Hawken reproduction kits, that takes the skill of Leonardo Divinci to complete. It should be a blinding success.
Yes.... Oh, wait ✋️. We have that. It's called The Hawken Shop. They offer a kit that is said to be a faithful representation of an actual Hawken. The vast majority of folks who are shooting ml would have considerable difficulty completing one of these kits. Many would end up as a collection of never started or started and given up on of $1,650 worth of parts. I'M NOT KNOCKING THEM OR THEIR PRODUCT. But it's odd that they don't seem to be criticized for producing, apparently, only one version of a Hawken. Nor for their failure to offer one in flint.

Just my take on it but I think Jim's customers will be new shooters who have gotten started with a Traditions or CVA or TC caplock and have fallen in love with MLing and want to upgrade or longtime caplock shooters who see an opportunity to upgrade at a reasonable cost to a much higher quality gun. I would sell off my TC, GPR and CVA guns to get Jim's Hawken kit but I can't. My grandkids would consider it a punch in the gut for me to off THEIR inheritance. 😂
 
You are so right. Some people are just slow to catch on...

Let me just say this, the response and enthusiasm concerning the upcoming Hawken has probably been greater than our other offerings combine...
I wouldn't be into flintlocks if is wasn't for you. I bought the Colonial, figured if it didn't work out I could easily sell it.
I have bought 2 more since then. I will get a Fowler, and I've been waiting on the Hawken. I k ow I'll buy 1 of the Hawken and probably a second one.
I know you research your products before you make and sell them. I appreciate what you do and offer.
There is a whole more than me that feel the same way.
Thank you Jim.

Pistol next😉
GSM
 
Can you imagine the firestorm if Jim had decided to introduce it as a flintlock?? 🤯 IT would make the current and ongoing kerfuffle would look like a chipmunk fight.

Why would that be the case? Most of the folks I’ve spoken with were expecting a half-stock flintlock. It wouldn’t have to be a Hawken per se; any half-stock sporting rifle would’ve been a huge hit, if you ask me.
 
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Why would that be the case? Most of the folks I’ve spoken with were expecting a half-stock flintlock. It wouldn’t have to be a Hawken per se.
Because it is being offered as a Hawken and the very existence of such has been questioned enough and contributed to SO MUCH controversy that the firestorm is clearly predictable. I can't imagine why they were expecting a halfstock flintlock when he has made it clear from the very start that he was bringing out a Hawken. 1850 ish at that.
 
Study original work.

Here are two pages from the 1970s The Hawken Shop catalogue No. 2 when the shop was in St. Louis. These are original rifles that The Hawken Shop had at that time. No two are alike or are copies of the Carson or Bridger rifles.
 

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  • hawken.pdf
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Because it is being offered as a Hawken and the very existence of such has been questioned enough and contributed to SO MUCH controversy that the firestorm is clearly predictable. I can't imagine why they were expecting a halfstock flintlock when he has made it clear from the very start that he was bringing out a Hawken. 1850 ish at that.

It would seem my friends and I missed the memo (regarding Kibler’s plan to release an 1850’s-era Hawken).

It’s obviously a polarizing topic, though the point is moot; no amount of kicking and screaming is going to make one iota of difference in the end.

I recognize I’m not alone in my lack of enthusiasm for this new offering, and that’s perfectly fine… different strokes for different folks. Wishing Kibler all the best regardless.
 


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