Well said, IMHO. You have to think that as a business man, he see's an opportunity to produce a rifle that will appeal to a wider market (and one with a gapping hole in it at the moment.) While, I'm admittedly not so confined/ concerned of what is period correct, I do know that a nicely styled and precisely made kit to produce a beautiful and handy cap lock rifle will be welcomed by many. This will no doubt be a big seller for him once word gets out. I have my name in for one myself. Good news is that I'll likely have time to fit a Woodsrunner build in before the Hawken launches.
Kibler Hawken update,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
- Thread starter olskool
- Start date
Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:
Like people are saying, he's looking to fill a niche - a lighter than historic Hawken for hunters and shooters who want to successfully (without getting stumped and quiting) assemble and finish a high quality kit. People that want the reliability of a percussion.
But another thing about this is it's his first percussion lock. I have his late Ketland lock and it's a fantastic fast and reliable lock. I have yet to have a flash in the pan with it. Something not true on some of the other flintlocks. If his first Percussion is as good, it will be a good lock for people wanting to build rifles from scratch, and many have been asking for a quality percussion lock. Most of the 2nd wave of Hawkin lock makers from the 70s have ceased to make them.
But another thing about this is it's his first percussion lock. I have his late Ketland lock and it's a fantastic fast and reliable lock. I have yet to have a flash in the pan with it. Something not true on some of the other flintlocks. If his first Percussion is as good, it will be a good lock for people wanting to build rifles from scratch, and many have been asking for a quality percussion lock. Most of the 2nd wave of Hawkin lock makers from the 70s have ceased to make them.
Last edited:
sportster73hp
50 Cal.
- Joined
- Jan 16, 2020
- Messages
- 1,089
- Reaction score
- 871
Watching his video today it looks as though be will be doing a patent breech . The shape of the standoff for the nipple stands very proud of the barrel and doesn’t appear to be part of the barrel stock. The computer simulation did not show a parting line where it would screw on.
If he used a screw in barrel for the nipples ,builders could simply use a touch hole and appropriate flintlock replacing the percussion lock.
If he used a screw in barrel for the nipples ,builders could simply use a touch hole and appropriate flintlock replacing the percussion lock.
sportster73hp
50 Cal.
- Joined
- Jan 16, 2020
- Messages
- 1,089
- Reaction score
- 871
He said it will have a standing breech. A hook breech can also be a hooked plug like the Baker flintlock rifle. A patent breech is a chunk of steel that threads into the barrel … with a hook. Similar to a TC .
Flintlock Fellow
40 Cal
You’re downplaying the percussion cap shortage, which is a fundamental issue in the hobby right now, the way I see it.
In my shooting circle, a lot of guys switched to shooting flintlocks exclusively years ago because of the rising cost and scarcity of caps. Those who still shoot percussion have drastically cut back on how much they shoot.
So why would new shooters gravitate toward a percussion gun when caps are so hard to find? It seems like flintlocks are a more practical and accessible choice for someone just getting into the hobby. Maybe I’m way off base here.
Last edited:
yea, maybeYou’re downplaying the percussion cap shortage, which is a fundamental issue in the hobby right now, the way I see it.
In my shooting circle, a lot of guys switched to shooting flintlocks exclusively years ago because of the rising cost and scarcity of caps. Those who still shoot percussion have drastically cut back on how much they shoot.
So why would new shooters gravitate toward a percussion gun when caps are so hard to find? It seems like flintlocks are a more practical and accessible choice for someone just getting into the hobby. Maybe I’m way off base here.
Nope, the TC had a hooked breech, not a patent breech. The hooked breech allows for the barrel to be removed by just taking out the wedges. The patent breech is an integral part of the barrel that requires the tang screw to be removed in order to remove the barrel. The patent breech can either be a part of the breech plug or it can be forged onto the barrel and a flint style breech plug be used as is what is on my ancestor's rifle.
I'm going to need you to walk me through this. As I understand it the TC, Investarms, etc rifles have hooked patent breaches. An external hook or lug that fits into a socket on the stock mounted tang and a shaped internal breach on the threaded plug end making the various styles of patent breaches used by manufacturers.
Flintlock Fellow
40 Cal
There seems to be some confusion here; a hooked breech can absolutely also be a patent breech! Thompson/Center percussion firearms are actually an excellent example.
These two terms describe different aspects of the breech design and aren’t mutually exclusive. A hooked breech refers to how the barrel connects to the stock, while a patent breech refers to the internal design of the breech plug with its small powder chamber.
So, it’s entirely possible for a muzzleloader to have both:
• The hooked breech allows the barrel to be easily removed for cleaning or maintenance.
• The patent breech creates a recessed powder chamber at the rear of the barrel to improve ignition (in theory). A patent breech design comes with its own set of potential problems.
These two terms describe different aspects of the breech design and aren’t mutually exclusive. A hooked breech refers to how the barrel connects to the stock, while a patent breech refers to the internal design of the breech plug with its small powder chamber.
So, it’s entirely possible for a muzzleloader to have both:
• The hooked breech allows the barrel to be easily removed for cleaning or maintenance.
• The patent breech creates a recessed powder chamber at the rear of the barrel to improve ignition (in theory). A patent breech design comes with its own set of potential problems.
Looks like a fine rifle to me. I generally don't have as much interest in percussion, but it is definitely appropriate for a Hawken style rifle. The tapered 32-inch barrel in 58 will be quite light and handy. I'm looking forward to seeing this gun in production even if I wouldn't necessarily plan to buy one (at least not right away).
longcruise
70 Cal.
Many of us who shoot cappers are simply making our own. I could easily keep myself supplied otherwise. Caps prices are high for sure but it hasn't stopped people in know from shooting. New shooters particularly don't have the memories of inexpensive caps and most come from the modern side of shooting and reloading that have been hit much harder in terms of availability and cost. They take it in stride.You’re downplaying the percussion cap shortage, which is a fundamental issue in the hobby right now, the way I see it.
In my shooting circle, a lot of guys switched to shooting flintlocks exclusively years ago because of the rising cost and scarcity of caps. Those who still shoot percussion have drastically cut back on how much they shoot.
So why would new shooters gravitate toward a percussion gun when caps are so hard to find? It seems like flintlocks are a more practical and accessible choice for someone just getting into the hobby. Maybe I’m way off base here.
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2021
- Messages
- 3,046
- Reaction score
- 6,492
I have no dog in this fight but, some have worried that the Kibler Hawken will be a generic Hawken based off several original examples.....
Isn't that what most would want? Other than those who want a bench copy of a specific Hawken I would think that would be the proper route and be representative of one that could have come out of the original Hawken shop.
There is a very very small chance of me purchasing one as it is not my time frame of interest, but I definitely want to see and handle one just to satisfy my curiosity.
And I have enough caps to last me the rest of my life, so that is not a factor. Buy them when you can so you have them when you can't.
Isn't that what most would want? Other than those who want a bench copy of a specific Hawken I would think that would be the proper route and be representative of one that could have come out of the original Hawken shop.
There is a very very small chance of me purchasing one as it is not my time frame of interest, but I definitely want to see and handle one just to satisfy my curiosity.
And I have enough caps to last me the rest of my life, so that is not a factor. Buy them when you can so you have them when you can't.
Flintlock Fellow
40 Cal
I’m sorry, guys, but I just don’t buy this notion that the “Kibler Hawken” is going to invite new shooters to the hobby or remove some imaginary barrier by being offered in a percussion ignition system… but I digress.
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2021
- Messages
- 3,046
- Reaction score
- 6,492
It may not invite new shooters, but there are some that have no interest in flintlocks (Hard to believe I know)
We have some at the club I shoot at, if someone shows up with a Kibler Hawken in percussion and outshoots them, they will have one.
Flintlock Fellow
40 Cal
That’s interesting, FC. Just hasn’t been my experience here in Pacific Northwest, where virtually everyone I know (with a couple of exceptions) and those I’ve come across at various rendezvous within the surrounding states, are shooting flintlocks.
I simply can’t help but feel as though a flintlock Hawken is a missed opportunity, their lack of historical prevalence notwithstanding. That’s what I had been been hearing excited whispers about for the past several months. As others have alluded to, maybe Kibler will offer a conversion kit somewhere down the road, and I hope he does.
I bet a fat rat to a funky monkey Jim puts a Rock Striker in that Hawken shortly after its up and running. Bet.
Tenring
45 Cal.
- Joined
- Aug 7, 2021
- Messages
- 946
- Reaction score
- 842
And I must say this Forum is Chuck full of d*cks here you almost don’t want to even post anything because the ones who live to be on this site twenty four hours a day have no life except for this they will take your words out of context and want to argue with a smart mouth siting in there basement. I do know what you mean.
Ditt44
40 Cal
... Perhaps Kibler should just call it a "Stylized Antebellum Plains Rifle"...
