lead hardness of patched round balls

[cynthialee]

If you go with a harder alloy you will want to use a bit more undersized ball than normal. A thicker patch will make up the difference and still provide a good group.

There was a fella (Roundball I think it was) who did some test shooting of brass bearings on this forum many years ago. And brass is a sight more hard than any alloy lead. He got good results. Now I don't recommend it, but it can be done and hard balls are not going to perform worse than lead. Just who wants a hard metal ball stuck in the barrel? Not like you can use a ball puller on such ammunition.

 

[M. De Land]

If you go with a harder alloy you will want to use a bit more undersized ball than normal. A thicker patch will make up the difference and still provide a good group.

There was a fella (Roundball I think it was) who did some test shooting of brass bearings on this forum many years ago. And brass is a sight more hard than any alloy lead. He got good results. Now I don't recommend it, but it can be done and hard balls are not going to perform worse than lead. Just who wants a hard metal ball stuck in the barrel? Not like you can use a ball puller on such ammunition.

I always believed what I was told of only using pure lead until I tried some harder alloy balls and could see no deterioration or improvement in my competitive scores. Same deal with swaged as opposed to my own cast balls with sprews .
Now there is something to keeping what ever alloy you are using consistent batch to batch because the size and weight will change in the differing shrinkage factors between alloy mixes. The more pure the lead the more the shrinkage factor will be thus effecting diameter and weight.

 

[GBG]

I use hard lead in .58 conicals and big patched round balls .600 - .735, with heavy powder charges in both rifles and smooth bores (BP and unmentionable) when going after hogs at 25 yards or less in thick cover. When I have time, I aim for large bones. If there's no time, I just point shoot center of mass, knowing the big ball will pass through from any angle.

 

[RAEDWALD]

For a patched ball it is the patch that enters and grips the rifling. The ball being gripped by the patch. Hardness has no function in itself (as demonstrated by trials with brass spheres).

What pure lead does is to deform on impact, which Is useful for hunting. Hunters of large game animals would alter the hardness to match the expected prey so a thick skin demands a harder bullet to more readily pierce the skin but wil not expand as a softer one does. Some going as far as to go up to 10% mercury to lead.

The other effect of normal lead hardening additions is to reduce the density, so the harder ones will be lighter, which will have an effect upon the flight of the bullet and demand more care in quality control to give all the bullets the same weight which will vary with changing the alloys. Hence using mercury which both increases the weight over that of pure lead and hardens the bullet. Not that I recommend using mercury given the health risks.

At the end of the day it only matters to a hunter who wants a particular effect from their impact upon prey. For a target shooter the only thing that matters is consistency. That being true of everything involved in target shooting. The ideal being to reduce every factor to a constant leaving only the shooter as the variable. Sadly, in my case, that is a very variable variable…..

For an expanding bullet, such as a Burton or Metford (commonly misnamed Minie), soft lead is vital to allow the bullet to upset into the grooves and pure lead was always demanded.

 

[DuncNZ]

The African Elephant hunters used mercury to harden their lead balls , but they were shooting 4 bore and larger smoothbores , That is 4oz balls and up .

 

[Jacobeen]

I am curious about this use of Mercury, mentioned for hardening and increasing weight. Do you have any reference to its' effects compared to either tin or antimony and any variations in hardness over time?

J

 

[DuncNZ]

I am curious about this use of Mercury, mentioned for hardening and increasing weight. Do you have any reference to its' effects compared to either tin or antimony and any variations in hardness over time?

J

Yes The African Elephant hunters went slowly insane from the mercury fumes. From what I have read they cast them used them dug them out if possible and remolded then that night No time period at all, These guns were huge 4 bore and bigger, that is a ¼lb ball , I doubt the mercury increased the weight of the ball . They often shot the Elephant in the knee to stop it then finished it off with a brain shot , a pure lead ball could not be relied on to penetrate the tough hide and break bone . I have some photos somewhere I'll dig them out and copy them if I can .

 

[Idaho Ron]

Pure lead is best , in fact it is the only lead to use in any projectiles used in muzzle loaders . One problem those of you who used hardened lead is the weight and size of your projectiles will probably vary from batch to batch , Pressure will rise from batch to batch , especially with Minnie balls or slugs .

Pure lead is not the only lead that can be used. The fact is a person can alloy lead to many hardness's. With a hardness tester a person can match alloy pretty easily. There are many companies that will do this for a shooter. Rotometals can mix lead for shooters, and they carry many different hardness's to fill most needs. They can't do a customized hardness but they do have several alloys that can fill the need for a slightly harder bullet or a very hard bullet and many levels in between, really it's what ever you want.
The statement that pure lead is best is a statement that might not cover all the bases. Pure lead is 5 BHN. I harden my lead to about 6.5 top 7 BHN for my hunting bullets in 50 cal.

This bullet was out of my elk from last year.

It started out at 458 grains and lost only 4 grains. The slightly hardened bullet performed spectacularly on the bull breaking the shoulder and spine, dropping the bull in his tracks.

I actually don't agree with the statement that alloy increases the pressure of the load. In fact I think it can reduce the the pressure with everything being equal. The alloy bullet will weigh less than the pure bullet therefore reducing pressures with the exact same load.
The weight of the bullets does depend on the alloy used. But if a person is getting certified lead from sources like Rotometal there is no reason that the bullets would be different. If a person is mixing their own there is no reason that they can't have the same hardness as long as they have the right tools to do the job.

 

[Africa58double]

I disagree with some information. Perhaps that’s my opinion of what “Pure Lead” is.

Wheel weights are usually 11-12 BHN

Pure lead is about 5-6 Bhn

For my .58 Double Kodiak and 75 gr FFg ….Deer/Hogs/Black Bear game I have a PRB of 263 grains that was Cast to 8Bhn. With a OxYoke .018 Patch … Both Barrels impact at 50yards equally at same POI. Very close to bullseyes - since I use a left target for left barrel and rite target for rite barrel. Offhand using a shooting stick. Very accurate, not W/W Lead yet not Pure soft either. Same PRB at 80 yards, impact is 4” low.

With the REAL bullet, I use same Bhn of 8 yet I water quench these for a additional 1 approx to get 9 BHN for the 440gr Larger game Boolet. Same charge, same powder, same Point of impact (Fortunate I know) at 50-80 yards. This would be for larger or tougher game. “Perhaps large hogs” This year down south.

These are my experiences…. Yet Pure 5-6 Bhn lead was not needed And I’m getting excellent accuracy, with Lead that is a tad bit harder for Impact to game for better penetration/Bone breaking and Exiting.

.562 Mic on balls for my .58

I’ll increase charges eventually- Will see if accuracy changes, Yet I’m drilling Bullseyes so I’ll leave well enough alone for now…Plus I have a Peep sight with the 3 leaf express sight I can see over top to assist at longer ranges (Probably 125yard max)

Just sharing my experiences

I have acquired 4 percussion rifles, but I have yet to fire one... hopefully that will change soon! If I plan to fire patched round balls, then my understanding is to select a round ball maybe 0.010 under bore size and then utilize an appropriately-thick patch which will grab the barrel's rifling and spin the ball.

If this is correct, then does the ball never contact the rifling? And if so, then does it matter (or not) whether that lead round ball is pure soft lead? Or can it be harder, i.e. cast from alloyed lead?

Pure lead only in Traditional ML's. Harder alloy balls will be difficult to load & will not properly engage the rifling. Same with conicals. Hard bullets won't obturate into the rifling & your bullets will not stabilize. Lots of posts here on the subject. Just do a search.

Pure lead only, for the reasons stated above.

 

[Bigpete]

Pure lead is not the only lead that can be used. The fact is a person can alloy lead to many hardness's. With a hardness tester a person can match alloy pretty easily. There are many companies that will do this for a shooter. Rotometals can mix lead for shooters, and they carry many different hardness's to fill most needs. They can't do a customized hardness but they do have several alloys that can fill the need for a slightly harder bullet or a very hard bullet and many levels in between, really it's what ever you want.
The statement that pure lead is best is a statement that might not cover all the bases. Pure lead is 5 BHN. I harden my lead to about 6.5 top 7 BHN for my hunting bullets in 50 cal.

This bullet was out of my elk from last year.

It started out at 458 grains and lost only 4 grains. The slightly hardened bullet performed spectacularly on the bull breaking the shoulder and spine, dropping the bull in his tracks.

I actually don't agree with the statement that alloy increases the pressure of the load. In fact I think it can reduce the the pressure with everything being equal. The alloy bullet will weigh less than the pure bullet therefore reducing pressures with the exact same load.
The weight of the bullets does depend on the alloy used. But if a person is getting certified lead from sources like Rotometal there is no reason that the bullets would be different. If a person is mixing their own there is no reason that they can't have the same hardness as long as they have the right tools to do the job.

But one must perpetuate the myth....

 

[DuncNZ]

Nice Bull , I really don't care for hardened round balls , I have found that pure lead always loads and shoots better in my ML rifles , not necessarily so in suppository rifles or ML with fast twists . That is me and I leave it up to each shooter to do their on tests on different hardness , as I have found what fits Bill wont necessarily fit Bob

 

[Africa58double]

I did not mention, My .58 Double has 1:48” twist with deep grooves. Ball or Bullet is fine in that… Or at least it seems from my accuracy. Fortunately the T/C .58 I shot yesterday ,also does Well with the 8-9 Bhn water quenched REAL bullet. It also has 1:48” twist,yet I don’t think the grooves are as deep. Those two examples show me that it’s possible, Pure Lead is not needed and I can gain the benifits of harder lead.

I also shoot with a Old Man that has been using Wheel Weights fir years to Cast…. I asked him about it and the BHN question???

He stated:
“Well I didn’t know It wasn’t supposed to be inaccurate, not sure of Bhn- Yet look at my target”.

He is older, Dosnt use Bhn as a measurement. So…. Take it with a grain of salt and don’t believe everything you read. Pure Lead isn’t necessary…… In the few experiences I have seen in First hand knowledge of. YMMV

 

[Griz44Mag]

Muzzleloaders do not generate enough pressure to require harder leads.
Those other kinds of guns with high chamber pressures do.
If one is paper patching a bullet or wrapping a ball with cloth then hardness is no factor at all on the gun-projectile relationship.
What happens if that projectiles hits soft tissue is another issue though. Soft lead will expand better - harder lead will penetrate deeper, so it is up to the hunter's needs on that issue. What are you hunting and how much penetration do you need? I use a dead soft .54 round ball for hunting, and on white tail, they pass completely through. Since I have never recovered one, I have no idea how much they expand, not does it matter. On bigger game it might be an issue.
Soft leads in higher pressures (again, not attainable in a muzzleloader) will cause barrel leading to occur - causing many issues with repeated shooting (barrel obstruction).
Harder leads for that are necessary. I have shot alloys (in very high pressure guns) that were so hard they fractured and split.
For an EXCELLENT reference in how hard does your lead need to be get a copy of Richard Lee's 2nd edition reloading book. (Page 134)
He spent several decades testing and evaluating lead hardness and compiled that data into a table of lead hardness vs pressures.
Simply put - it works!

With a hardness tester a person can match alloy pretty easily.

I love my Cabine Tree tester - for all of those that scratch and dent to evaluate lead hardness - get one - they are not that expensive and will save a lot of guessing.