Leather vs. Lead setting flints

[buckknife]

if a cock is made of iron it would most likely be ductile iron,which will bend instead of breaking clean.Cast gray iron is much weaker than ductile.I have read on the net someware of a cock bending sum while using lead.If it were cast gray it may have broke.
I have a cheap gun and using lead and tempering the frizzen made this lock go from a not so good of a sparker that i had to constintly knap flints every 10 shots to a lock that kicks up much more spark and the sparks are much hotter.Kaping a flint is pretty much a thing of the past for me now.I wore all my english flints down to nuthin but nubs.I now use chert rock from the creek and dont plan on ever buying black flints again as long as i can get chert for free.
it is really unbeliveable how hot the spark is now compared to what it was.If i want to knap a flint all i have to do is on a empty gun close the frizzen and pull the cock back and do a a dry fire.I do this after moving the flint forward when the time comes.
As far as the cock breaking,maybe if it were made of cast gray iron and you had some very heavy springs.It would be possible i guess.
I know you have been in this flint lock game much lonnger than i have and i respect your knowledge,heck im using extra virgin olive oil for patch lube now and have all my guns using it in storage,works great.not a speck of rust in any of em yet,been using it for a month now.No more petro in my bores.
so if my cock breaks some day i guess you have the right to say...nay nay na nayna i told you so :haha:

 

[Mike Brooks]

I've used both, can't tell the slightest bit of difference. :blah:
I had a friend break his cock using leather so in this case was leather the culprit? :shake:

 

[musketman]

I've used both, can't tell the slightest bit of difference. :blah:
I had a friend break his cock using leather so in this case was leather the culprit? :shake:

Depends on how thick it was, if it was wet, how thick was the flint... (thick and wet add up the grams quickly)

 

[paulvallandigham]

I don't expect to change th eminds of anyone like Mr. Lewis, so I am ignoring you. But, the rest of the readers deserve better than what has been posted here. I have set out above why lead works better. There is an easy test each shooter can, and SHOULD perform on this issue.

Take a new flint, wrap it in your favorite leather wrap- whatever tickles your fancy( tanned, chromed tanned, raw hide, pounded raw hide, wetted rawhide that is then pressed in the jaws of a vice to squeeze it as thin as it gets, etc.) - screw down the cock screw tight, after aligning the flint properly in the jaws so that it wil contact the entire face of the frizzen, and then, WITH AN EMPTY, AND UNPRIMED GUN, turn off the lights, give your eyes a chance to adjust to the dark, hold the gun out in front of you so you are looking at the pan from the side of the gun, and release the cock with your finger or thumb. Take a look at the color of the sparks, and not the number if sparks it throws. Do this at least 5 times to give you a good average on the issue of spark. Check the cock screw to see if it needs to be tightened more, now that the flint has set into the leather. Fire five more times, again observing the color and number os sparks. Also note how long the sparks last. You can gauge this by counting how many times the sparks bounce in the empty pan before burning out.

Then, turn on the lights, use the same flint, and now wrap it in a thin piece of lead, cut to size. Now do the same experiment using the lead wrap. Make sure you turn out the lights again, and give your eyes the same amount of time to adjust to the dark. After the first five hammer drops, check that cockscrew and tighten it. Then fire another five shots. Observe the color and number of sparks thrown, and how long they last.

Here is what I found when I did these test the first time, and what I have found whenever I do the test again with a different gun. The flint wrapped in lead throws more sparks- more than double- and the sparks are white hot, and not a dull orange color. The sparks will bounce at least twice in the pan before burning up, while those from the same flint wrapped in leather die out on the rise from the first bounce.

I did find a lock that had a badly tempered frizzen that just would not throw many sparks no matter what I used. I retempered the frizzen, and it sparks correctly, now.

So, I don't want to argue with anyone about what I have written. Please do this simple test yourself. I don't care what some old article written in Englad bragging about Brandon flints says about how to mount the flint. Brandon flints are among the best. I am using them right now. But, my testing is what forced me to conclude I would get more sparks, and hotter sparks, wrapping the flint in Lead. My cocks are not made of potmetal, but of steel, and they show absolutely no signs of bending, cracking, or breaking after more than 20 years of firing using lead wraps for my flints. My rifle uses a Cochrane lock, and my fowler uses a Chambers lock. Both are good quality locks, but I have seen nothing being sold on guns sold in this country over the past 25 years that would cause me any concern. I have seen old locks for sale at Friendship of dubious ancestry, and unknown origin and age, That have fairly cheap prices on them, probably for those reasons. I suspect you get what you pay for. I have seen foreign made locks that were of very soft steels, and that showed obvious wear after only a few hundred firings. I really don't see an justification for using guns with this kind of lock in this day and age.

Mr. Brooks: I don't know what kind of testing you did with flint wraps. I suggest retesting the matter with my test as described and see if you don't see a difference. I began my shooting with my flint wrapped in leather. I was frustrated several times when the leather allowed the flint to slide sideways out of the cock and was lost in the grass at my feet. I just got another piece of leather, and another flint out, and figured it was the price of firing a flintlock. Since using lead, I have not lost a flint this way. I have noticed when I move the flint forward that you can see the impression of the jaws of the cock in the lead wrap, and this may be the reason I don't suffer movement, as I did with the leather. My late friend, Don Latter,Jr. is the one who showed me the " test", and convinced me to stop using leather to wrap my flints. He even flattened a lead ball on his anvil so that I could have my first lead wrap.

 

[SCATTERSHOT]

Interesting... I'll have to try the lead wrap in a dark room. Thanks. :hatsoff:

 

[J.D.]

I think paulvallandigham is right on. I have used both leather and lead for over 20 years and seem to get better ignition and flint life with lead.

I have also noticed, but the cause didn't register until now, that when using leather to hold the flint, that there appears to be small bits of metal embedded in the edge of the flint.

I, also don't don't seem to knap gunflits nearly as often, usually not at all when using lead to pad the flint.

Just a few observations.

BTW, the steels used in quality modern locks are FAR tougher and more resillient than the soft wrought iron, as used in 18th century locks, so the used of lead shouldn't make a nickles worth of difference over a long period of use.

J.D.

 

[robinghewitt]

I just did it and here's the movie playing at quarter speed.
Leather then lead. The lead cuts some of the longest lasting sparks I have ever seen :hatsoff:

Movie 1Mb

 

[Java Man]

Robin,

What took you so long to give us a pic? :thumbsup:

Thank you.

 

[Old Ironsights]

I just did it and here's the movie playing at quarter speed.
Leather then lead. The lead cuts some of the longest lasting sparks I have ever seen :hatsoff:

Movie 1Mb

Wow. :bow:

Did you notice that those sparks are more directed too?

 

[2172]

Old Ironsights...I agree 100% ...see no difference...I have taken the step with each of my cocks to use a dremel tool to cut lines across the inside of the jaws, sloping back...increases the bite, I think...Hank

 

[paulvallandigham]

Thank you, Squire Robin. With just my eyes, I don't see the large flare-up that appears with both firings, but only individual sparks. And, your film seems to overexpose the flash and the sparks, but that is a problem common to all film as you reach the ends of the light spectrum.

 

[robinghewitt]

your film seems to overexpose the flash and the sparks,

You lose a lot of resolution when you convert to .wmv to get the file size down, it rather blurs consecutive images in to each other.

 

[Otter]

I've never used lead, but I've seen locks broken and damaged by it. The extra weight added, at the worst possible place is enough to keep me away from it.

Mark,

I, too, would like to know what makes you come to your conclusion and blanket statement. Do you have some documentation? I would really like to see it and change my ways if it is convincing.

I've never been able to get any leather to hold the flint for more than a few shots. I've tried various thicknesses and types of leather with the same results. I switched to lead and the problem was solved. I would have tried to tighten the screw more, but since the locks are made of pot metal, that could just break the lock. Use what works for you. I have serious doubts that an extra 75 +/- grains of lead surrounding the flint would create enough more ft-lbs of energy to break the jaw/hammer in something less than, say, 50,000 shots. I don't weigh my flints to make sure they are all within a specific weight range so my lock is not damaged by the extra weight of heavy flints.

 

[Swampman]

Using lead in modern pot metal locks will damage them internaly as well. Don't use lead.

 

[Swampman]

"the steels used in quality modern locks are FAR tougher and more resillient than the soft wrought iron"

False, they are cast steel(pot metal)

 

[paulvallandigham]

No, MARK, YOU are WRONG, again! Modern Steel is often cast, but all steel is cast, even forgings which are " forged" in steel mills after being cast in ingots. Properly heat treated there is no difference in the molecular structure of a cast steel hammer or cock, than one that is forged. Forging does not change the composition of the steel alloy. Pot metal, as you continue to mis use the term, refers to cheap allows mostly containing lead to make the iron softer, as an early post notes.

Tnis is not the first time you have insisted on spreading your ignorance, and I am sure it will not be the last. However, you are wrong, and simply repeating yourself will not make you right. I don't know what your problem is about learning something new, but you are obviously irritating more readers than just me. You have a lot of offer to readers, here, but your views about some of these things just makes you look like a nut. Please stop and think before you continue to write some of this stuff. Instead of buying more guns and knives, invest in a Chronograph so you can actually conduct real tests on your pet loads, and favorite loading procedures. And borrow a microscope the next time one of those cocks you talk about breaking when someone puts a lead wrapped flint in it, so that you can examine the molecular structure at the break to see what happened. Local colleges often have electron microscopes and the staff is often willing to make use of it to help you answer an infrequent, and interesting question to them. All you have to do is ask. If I even thought that some part of a lock broke because the part was cast out of a cheap alloy, I would be all over the manufacturer and the seller who sold me the lock or part. And I would not hesitate to come on MF and let all of you know where I got a lemon. Someone else asked you for some kind of proof that you actually have a lock where the cock has broken. I think that request is legitimate. What you continue to claim is so far beyond the experiences of all the rest of us, that we have the right to ask you to produce the goods. So, I ask you, Mark Lewis, either produce evidence of what you are saying, or retract the statement.

 

[TANSTAAFL]

Lead use for military muskets was for a utilitarian purpose. In the heat of battle was no time to be fiddling around with leather when changing flints. Precut and shaped lead made for a fast turnaround.

 

[J.D.]

Mark,
I have studied properties of materials for a college machine tools class. I am also a somewhat accomplished blacksmith. I am accomplished enough to know about the grain structure of iron and steels, and I can assure you that modern cast steel parts are stronger, tougher, and more durable than a forged iron part.

IF a cast lock part should break, the cause usually is a casting flaw in the form of a void, and not from the quality of the materials.

I might add that a lock produced using modern casting techniques, with good quality control as used by the better lockmakers, should never break simply because of the small added weight of the lead wrap.

IF a part should fail, it would have failed, in time, no matter what material the flint was wrapped with.

I speak from the stand point of a formal education, as well as from experience.

BTW, I can hunt up the types of steels used in the various lock parts, if that would help to convince you.

I can give you the types of steel that a few lock parts are made of, just off the top of my head.

Nearly all cast frizzens are cast of 1095 steel. A part cast of 1095 steel is as strong as machined part, using the same steel.

Nearly all of the cast springs are cast of 6150 steel. And most tumblers are cast of a 41 series steel, if my memory is correct.

Each of those steels are specifically selected for the requirements of the specific part. Tumblers need to be tough, so 41 series steels fill that bill. Frizzens need to be real hard, but not so brittle that they will break, and properly hardened and tempered 1095 steel fills that niche very well.
Springs require a tough, flexible steel, and 6150, being a medium carbon alloy steel provides those properties.

Anything else I can help you with?

J.D.

 

[Swampman]

Cast frizzens and springs break all the time. Cast (pot metal) isn't as strong as forged wrought iron. The best modern lock don't hold a candle to a handmade lock. Using lead for a flint wrap increases lock time, and will damage your lock. It's much harder on the internals, and it will snap the cock in the smallest/weakest area of the cock. It's the reason that military locks eventually evolved into reenforced, or double throated design. I've seen locks damaged by it, and I've never known a knowledgeable muzzleloader enthusist that didn't shun the idea. Do what you like, they are your locks. Putting your car in drive while it's still rolling backwards is a bad idea too.

 

[robinghewitt]

I do have an idea in my head that when a part fails the crack usually starts at a fault in the metal crystal structure.

When you work metal by forging I think you "blur" the faults so a crack is less likely to worsen. If you look at the failed end under a microscope you can easily see where the crack started.

A cast part is IMHO more likely to spread the crack. You rarely see rust in the start of the crack on a cast part because when they start to go they seem to pop in half PDQ.