Leather vs. Lead setting flints

I am not addressing you Robin, just a good place to jump on here. I've been sitting and listening. There has been more of the one liners introduced here that are designed to inflame rather than discuss.
I am no metalurgist nor accomplished blacksmith. I do enough smithing to make springs and lock work for riflesmithing and to get locks tuned to go bang. In my field experience over the last 35 yrs. of shooting and hunting with these old smokepoles, I have never had a feather spring, cock, steel, or any other part break in service. I have used lead for most of those years because I got tired of pulling up to shoot and finding the flint went Bye Bye with the lost round ball. :cursing: Since using lead, I have only lost one flint and that was at a re-enactment firing volleys on command and no time to check the flint between shots. I have found leather in most of my flintlocks was a iffy proposition and only works dependably in a very few of my flinters. My personal preference leans towards the lead in all the others. No breakage but a whole lot more sparking going on. No lost flints. :applause: :grin: That makes me a happy camper regardless of the event or my personae. :winking:

 

[Swampman]

There's a large screw that runs through the top jaw into the cock. If you tighten it, the flint stays in place.

I've been using leather only for 25 years with zero problems.

 

[Old Ironsights]

Cast frizzens and springs break all the time. Cast (pot metal) isn't as strong as forged wrought iron. The best modern lock don't hold a candle to a handmade lock. Using lead for a flint wrap increases lock time, and will damage your lock. It's much harder on the internals, and it will snap the cock in the smallest/weakest area of the cock. It's the reason that military locks eventually evolved into reenforced, or double throated design. I've seen locks damaged by it, and I've never known a knowledgeable muzzleloader enthusist that didn't shun the idea. Do what you like, they are your locks. Putting your car in drive while it's still rolling backwards is a bad idea too.

Lets see, all in one post we have Eliteisim (Only Hand Made is good), Ignorance (Wrought Iron is tougher than Steel), Appeas to authority ("no knowledgeable..."), and blind rejection of demonstrable & demonstrated evidence. :youcrazy:

No wonder we have a hard time attracting newcomers. :shake:

 

[mikelange]

I second Ironsights' position.

I use leather pads because, once upon a time, I read that lead could lose its grip on the flint, due to having no "give" to it as leather does. If in fact lead is the better material for the purpose, I'm using the alternative because I don't know any better. Somehow I feel no desire to dig in my heels and defend doing so. Instead, next shooting session, I'll flatten a ball and give it a shot (ha ha). I'll draw my own conclusions, perhaps share my results, and then allow others the same courtesy.

That's relevant to the original post, isn't it?

As for the "debate" over castings vs. forgings: while Squire Robin offered what appeared to be some fact-based info as to a possible cause of catastrophic failure in cast parts (and, hey, even in investment-cast buttplates, guards, etc, imperfections are not unknown, so logically the same flaws will eventually be found in lock parts as well), the "pot metal" aspect of the argument consists of one individual repeating the same statement, over and over and over, with a few comments about the superiority of hand forging thrown in for good elitist measure ("elitist" in the sense that he knows perfectly well how expensive hand forging usually is, and how few of us are likely to be able to afford locks and other components of that type). Even now I imagine him typing a reply, stating again that castings are pot metal, but typing v-e-r-y s-l-o-w-l-y due to the fact that those of us who disagree with his position are obviously too stupid to read quickly.

That is, if he can take time from declaring yet again that a type of muzzleloading rifle manufactured in quantity from the early 1800's on is "non-traditional".

FWIW, I'm sure that Ruger would appreciate a public statement being made to the effect that its fine handguns and rifles, all of which begin life as high-quality investment castings, are in fact made of pot metal.

Knowing and admitting that I've contributed to the process -- thus another thread is derailed down the road of irrelevance, misinformation, and insult.

 

[aragorn]

Squire Robin, if you're there, where did that quote come from?

 

[J.D.]

Cast frizzens and springs break all the time. Cast (pot metal) isn't as strong as forged wrought iron. The best modern lock don't hold a candle to a handmade lock.

Well Mark, I have been shooting muzzle loaders for over 30 years, and shooting flint guns exclusively for over 20 years, and I have never experienced a broken frizzen, or a broken mainspring. The only broken mainspring that I have personally seen was on Italian bess, and I think those springs are forged. The springs on the Italian bess may be cast, but they certainly don't have the appearance, uniformity or feel of cast springs.

I have heard second hand accounts of cast springs breaking, and I read one account, on line, of a frizzen breaking, but considering the sheer numbers of locks made of cast parts, those few failures are so rare as to be negligible.

I might add that the person who wrote of his frizzen breaking had been fiddling with rehardening and tempering without knowing what he was doing.

I might add that there are examples of original forged cocks that have been broken and repaired by brazing. Not welding, but brazing, and those locks show wear from hard use after the repair.

I have also seen broken, old, original, forged, springs on original locks. So, if those hand made springs are more durable than modern cast springs, why did they break?

[/quote]
It's the reason that military locks eventually evolved into reenforced, or double throated design. I've seen locks damaged by it, and I've never known a knowledgeable muzzleloader enthusist that didn't shun the idea. [/quote]

The french muskets, and later American made, french influenced muskets evolved into the double throat, but British muskets did not. If breakage was such a problem, then the Brits would have changed over too.
J.D.

 

[roundball]

Cast frizzens and springs break all the time. Cast (pot metal) isn't as strong as forged wrought iron. The best modern lock don't hold a candle to a handmade lock. Using lead for a flint wrap increases lock time, and will damage your lock. It's much harder on the internals, and it will snap the cock in the smallest/weakest area of the cock. It's the reason that military locks eventually evolved into reenforced, or double throated design. I've seen locks damaged by it, and I've never known a knowledgeable muzzleloader enthusist that didn't shun the idea. Do what you like, they are your locks. Putting your car in drive while it's still rolling backwards is a bad idea too.

Lets see, all in one post we have Eliteisim (Only Hand Made is good), Ignorance (Wrought Iron is tougher than Steel), Appeas to authority ("no knowledgeable..."), and blind rejection of demonstrable & demonstrated evidence. :youcrazy:

No wonder we have a hard time attracting newcomers. :shake:

:rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:
It never ends does it...

 

[roundball]

FWIW, I'm sure that Ruger would appreciate a public statement being made to the effect that its fine handguns and rifles, all of which begin life as high-quality investment castings, are in fact made of pot metal.

Knowing and admitting that I've contributed to the process -- thus another thread is derailed down the road of irrelevance, misinformation, and insult.

Many of TC's products are cast as well, and they have a well established reputation for high[url] quality...in[/url] fact when you call the TC number, the menu options include:
Thompson Center Arms;
Thompson Center Arms Investment Castings;
etc
etc

 

[Swampman]

My guns have pot metal locks by Chambers and L&R. That why I would never use lead.

"Wrought Iron is tougher than (cast) Steel"

Also known as pot metal.

Rugers (which I collect) have to be built a lot heavier than finely made forged fire arms because cast steel isn't as strong as forged steel. I've worked in the Aerospace industry for 30 years. Pot metal locks are not as strong as handforged locks. They are acceptable if care is taken.

 

There's a large screw that runs through the top jaw into the cock. If you tighten it, the flint stays in place.

I've been using leather only for 25 years with zero problems.

Amazingly Pompous of you. If you are implying that I don't know what a top jaw screw is for. I doubt your claims of having no problems with leather wraps on your flint in 25 years if you shoot very much at all.
:shake:

 

[Itegorm]

Regardless of what the other posts have argued nearly to death trying to convience each other that there method is best here is my response to the initail question. I have used both lead and leather and even a bit of wool blanketing at one time or another to hold the flint in. Here is what I found; The wool didn't work for more than a shot or two (it was what I had on hand at the time), the leather and lead both worked pretty well for me and I really didn't see much of a differnce between the two (although I may try the test as noted in a couple of the above posts). I tend to use whatever I have on hand at the moment (either lead or leather) to hold the flint in.

One thing I will mention is that a few years ago while at a reenactment firing in volleys I saw a fellow whose flint leather (very dried out) had charred enough to catch and hold a smouldering spark and ignite the powder he poured from the cartride into the pan. Needless to dsay it was a bit of a shock to him. When he looked over the gun and his singed fingers he noticed that the flint leather was still glowing and smouldering a bit. Surely a freak accident but it is something I have checked for every time since the event, and have never seen again.

As for which is better or what works best try them both out and see what you like.

 

That is exactly the intent of my post. Use what works in any particular Lock/flint combo. It's a personal choice through experimentation. We don't need some self appointed expert to come along and give us his smart acre one liners.
At the very least, I don't.

 

[roundball]

I just finished an outstanding range session with a TC .45cal Flint barrel that I'd stumbled across at a real steal...their standard 28" x 1:48" Flint barrel...(TC no longer makes them in .45cal)...looks like it's brand new, I cleaned it with steaming hot soapy water, plastered it with Natural Lube 1000, and installed one of TC's new style fast vent liners in it.

Had it in the truck this morning when I went Turkey hunting and after getting skunked, I stopped by the range...Goex 3F, 3/4" black English flints (held in place with a big heavy piece of leather) ran 50 Hornady .440's through it, didn't wipe between shots, never had to retighten the jaw screw, never had to knapp the flint, never adjusted windage so bore/sight alignment is perfect...extremely accurate barrel...will have to christen it on a good buck this fall...a .440 in the heart will do nicely.
:thumbsup:

 

[Otter]

My guns have pot metal locks by Chambers and L&R. That why I would never use lead.

"Wrought Iron is tougher than (cast) Steel"

Also known as pot metal.

Rugers (which I collect) have to be built a lot heavier than finely made forged fire arms because cast steel isn't as strong as forged steel. I've worked in the Aerospace industry for 30 years. Pot metal locks are not as strong as handforged locks. They are acceptable if care is taken.

I still think, Mark, that you need to find out what "pot metal" really is. It is not what you are generically referring to. Do some research and report back. I find no reference to "pot metal" in any of the metallurgical and machinery reference material I have on hand. Lots of different cast irons and cast steels, but not "pot metal" as you refer to it. Am I an expert in metallurgy? No, but I am a pretty good BS'er, and one thing you can't do is sh%t a sh%tter. Not to be disrespectful, but in this case, I don't feel your knowledge of the subject matter is extensive enough to be making blanket statements as you have been.

 

[Old Ironsights]

Beauty!

Just as long as you don't use an eeeeeville REAL or other such conical. :winking: :blah: :rotf:

 

[Halftail]

There's a large screw that runs through the top jaw into the cock. If you tighten it, the flint stays in place.

I've been using leather only for 25 years with zero problems.

Did someone say something? :youcrazy:
:grin:

 

[Swampman]

You guys know best. Carry on!

 

[Old Ironsights]

You guys know best. Carry on!

No, you just haven't given us any reason to believe that your opinion has any factual basis.

I'm perfectly willing to listen to anyone who actually explains the reasoning behind their opinoins. I may not accept the opinion without personal testing, but I am more likely to test it.

Your Appeal to Authority in claiming to have workes in "the aerospace industry" is as meaningless as my claiming to have worked in "Law Enforcement" because I was a rent-a-cop for a while. What do you do in the "Aerospace Industry"? In regards to this discussion, anything other than having a degree in Metalurgical Engineering is immaterial.

There is a saying in the wider world of Internet Forums. "Provide Content or STFU." So far you haven't provide content. I really wish you would.

 

[robinghewitt]

Squire Robin, if you're there, where did that quote come from?

Lt Col Peter Hawker's (1786-1853) book, Instructions to Young Sportsmen.

A military man who took a terrible wound and retired to shooting and writing best selling books about how to shoot anything and everything for sport :thumbsup:

 

[robinghewitt]

Amazingly Pompous of you.

I know he doesn't sound very friendly but I'm sure he would be quite charming if you met him.

Folks try a lot harder once they come within range :rotf: