Lighter hunting charges?

[roundball]

Well I've killed more then one with lighter loasds.

Yes, I suspect a lot of us have...I've killed them with 20ga slugs, 12ga buckshot, a .22cal rifle, a .45cal handgun, broadheads, etc...but that's actually not the point of the discussion you quoted.
Some of us are just making the point that there are obvious / significant benefits of using heavier charges...no one is saying they're always required.

 

[larry wv]

As far as I am concerned the more velocity the more deformation. Even I am not Dumb enough to think the AIR will flatten a ball. Kind of like a car wreck the faster you go the harder you stop in a wreck. I like extra powder for a bit more insurance. You can kill a Deer with 35 grains of 1f I don't care. That's between you and the Deer. Larry

 

[roundball]

As far as I am concerned the more velocity the more deformation.

Correct...and actually its even more than 'as far as you're concerned'...it's an indisputable matter of physics / physical dynamics.

 

[gearheart]

Velocity deforms the ball. Not energy. A whole lot of what if's and nitpicking going on in this thread. I use 85 gr of 3f in a .45 and don't feel like its over kill. :grin: Larry

Uh,Larry, Velocity IS Energy. That is how energy is measured. E = 1/2 m V squared. it is High School physics. You did go to High School, yes? Energy is the ability do do work. Work is deforming the ball. QED.

 

[roundball]

Wow...did you really need to make such a smart alec comment about somebody going to high school...is that what you're all about?

PS: And no one is trying to define energy or question 'what' energy is.

To clarify for you, the point being discussed is about the degree of deformation of a lead round ball as it relates to velocity of said ball...and there is a direct correlation to the amount of deformation / expansion that results from different amounts of velocity at impact, which also affects the amount of energy transferred to / disruption & damage done to, a target...whether it's a gallon jug of water or a game animal.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Ah but Roundball my use of the word "energy" was questioned, Larry WV wrote,

Velocity deforms the ball. Not energy.

Which I left alone, but as pointed out by another poster, it's the same.

The assertion that more = more, is not refuted.

The question that has been raised is:

Is the greater deforemation that you achieve with a higher velocity load have a demonstrable effect compared to a lighter, but effective load, sufficient to warrant upping the powder to that faster load?

I submit that upping the muzzle velocity on a load that transits the deer broadside, by adding 20 grains of powder, may not have sufficient effect that the hunter would notice. The deer would be as dead as quickly based on observaton by human senses. Hence it may be a modern anachronism and not a true rule-of-thumb.

LD

 

[hanshi]

Sorry, but velocity IS NOT energy; it is one component that is used to calculate energy.

Two meteors hit the earth at the same velocity. One has a mass of 500 kilograms but the other has a mass of 500,000 kilograms. If velocity is energy then both would do the same amount of damage. This is the reason a baseball size space rock didn't wipe out the dinosaurs.

 

[larry wv]

You tell them Hanshi I am to dumb. :redface: Larry

 

[roundball]

You tell them Hanshi I am to dumb. :redface: Larry

Well, if you'd have gone to high school like we told you !!! LOL

 

[roundball]

Across the board statements are very often not absolute...I think your assertions would be better suited if couched in terms of "YOU might not notice the difference" and leave it at that.
:wink:

 

[coloradoclyde]

The largest, most powerful gun in the world can kill without even actually hitting the target. And the smallest, wimpiest gun can kill if it hits the right spot. What gun or load you decide to choose between these two extremes depends on the amount of skill you wish to exhibit.

 

[George]

Sorry, but velocity IS NOT energy; it is one component that is used to calculate energy.

The two are inseparable. Stop the ball, it then has no energy because the velocity gives it its energy. And, the velocity only exists because of energy. It takes work to accelerate a ball from a stand still up to its velocity, and the ability to do that work is the very definition of energy. Once the ball is accelerated, it has kinetic energy, energy of motion, which stays with it as long as it's moving. It uses some of that energy to do the work of pushing the air aside, slowing and becoming less energetic as it goes. Then, on the other end of the trajectory, all the remaining energy is dumped into the target, changed into mechanical energy, energy of sound and heat, and the velocity disappears. Punching the hole in the deer requires work, energy does it. It's the only thing which can.

Energy rides the ball from start to finish, changing its form as it goes. To talk about the flight of a bullet without including weight, velocity and energy makes no sense. They are a package. Might as well say thought exists without mind, atoms without gluons or your shadow without you.

Spence, proud high school graduate. :grin:

 

[coloradoclyde]

So if I shoot a deer and the ball passes clear through the deer, how much energy was needed and how much was wasted?

 

[George]

If it passes through, you got him, so who cares? :haha:

Spence

 

[coloradoclyde]

Because according to the equation KE= ½ x m x V2 and what you just said,.. as long as the ball goes through the deer it doesn’t matter if you use 10 grains or 100. If the ball passes though it has unused energy remaining.

 

[coloradoclyde]

Current Quote



"Difference of opinion leads to inquiry, and inquiry to truth."

~ Thomas Jefferson

 

[George]

Because according to the equation KE= ½ x m x V2 and what you just said,.. as long as the ball goes through the deer it doesn’t matter if you use 10 grains or 100. If the ball passes though it has unused energy remaining.

Seems logical to me. That doesn't seem like a problem, maybe I'm missing your point.

Spence

 

[roundball]

:grin: I guess it could be said that the thread has been seriously hi-jacked now for sure, LOL.

So getting things back into the parlance of real world shooting & hunting, speaking for myself my summary of benefits using heavier charges vs. lighter charges includes the following:

Recoil during load development is managed, never an issue
Recoil while hunting is never an issue, period
Flatter trajectory
Minimized effects of misjudging distance
Maximized odds of achieving intended POI
Greater impact to the target
Greater energy transfer into the target
Greater internal trauma within the target
Maximizes odds of a DRT / shortest recovery
Minimizes odds of wounded / lost animals

 

[George]

I don't shoot a .50, don't shoot a .54 very much. When I do my load varies between 80 and 110 grains of 3F, depending on where I'm hunting. At home in Kentucky it's 80, because the shots are closer and I'm more likely to be able to pick a good POI. When I've been able to travel to the west to hunt it has been 110, since I plan for shots out to 125+ yards. These discussions always seem to revolve around killing power, but that's something I've never worried about. It doesn't take much power to kill a whitetail. Still, I tend to use heavier charges, because they flatten the trajectory a bit, which extends my range and makes hitting the spot a little easier. I always plan for the longer, tougher shots, then avoid them like the plague.

I use the 'point blank range' method for hunting, so the trajectory is the thing.

Recoil isn't a problem for me. My guns tend to be heavier, which minimizes it, and I'm pretty tolerant of what there is.

Spence

 

[Stumpkiller]

Because according to the equation KE= ½ x m x V2 and what you just said,.. as long as the ball goes through the deer it doesn’t matter if you use 10 grains or 100. If the ball passes though it has unused energy remaining.

Equations tell us a lot. But so do axioms.

"Too much is always enough."

The reverse is more often correct as well. Having a margin for when the bone, branch or bad aim gets in the way is good for uncontrolled outdoor type situations.

My hunting loads are moderate. .54 using 85 gr FFFg, .50 using 85 gr. FFg and 16 bore (.660) using 75 gr FFg. I prefer accuracy over anti-tank capabilities and work around good grouping loads. A 200# whitetail can absorb a lot of abuse but these are well into sufficient and perhaps bordering ideal loads for my methods.

I seldom consider anything over 80 yards with a rifle or 50 with the smoothbore. Typically my shots are at 35 to 50 yards. Hunt more, shoot closer.