Longer barrel equals tighter pattern??

[Lorne Johnson]

Actually, I did not say that longer barreled guns are slow pieces. I said that handling (and pointing) are important.

I would say that "A properly made and balanced fowler" is by definition "a lively and fast handling birding piece."

Handling all these variables is what makes gunsmithing an art.

 

[Mike Brooks]

Marlin made (or still does make) a Long Tom 12 ga with a 36? in barrel for geese. But then again cop shot guns with 18 in barrels make a 30" pattern at 30yrd.

As far as talking about this before, it seems that EVERY topic of muzzleloaders has been covered at one time or other here So should we close down the site?

I would consider a barrel with a 36" barrel short in the muzzleloading game. "Cop" shotguns that shoot those kinds of patterns use screw in chokes. You can do the same and better with a muzzle loader if you're willing to choke it. This has been (as far as I know) mainly a discussion about cylinder bored guns. Choke is a whole different game.
I was just suggesting that doing a search on what has already been written on the subject might be helpful and save some people a whole bunch of typing, but I typed anyway. :haha:

 

[poordevil]

:hatsoff:

 

[gizamo]

Actually, it's fun to read these kind of threads. I'm relatively new to Smoothbores (having been a rifle snob in my past life :grin: ) And I just sit back and learn from these posts.

Funny how sometimes the best information gets divulged when two knowing guys square off. Seems like that's when things really get interesting.

Like to see the debate take place, and the facts laid out on the table. It's always good to see both sides of the argument given and the reasoning behind them.

Anyrate, it's been a good read...


giz

 

[Mike Brooks]

Well, I'm coming closer all the time to starting work on a Hudson Valley fowler with a 11 bore 72" barrel. I'll probably play with it quite a bit once it's done, I've only had the parts for thirteen years.... :haha: at least the barrel is in the wood now!
I sure hope the price of shot comes down by then... :shocked2:

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

The only way I know of to avoid stringing is to stay as close to a "square" shot load as possible. The 3/4 ounce shot charge in a 28 gauge is the classic square load usually mentoned. The twenty is 7/8 ounce and the 16 gauge is supposed to be 1 ounce. If they wanted a good pattern and more shot they went to a bigger bore, but still didn't throw the weight that people are used to today. We've learned that we can go a bit heavier in each bore and still have the shot arrive more or less at once rather than as a string. Part of this may be due to more uniform shot and the use of card wads instead of tow. As a result, a twenty bore fowler of today can throw an ounce and a quarter from its long barrel and still be a good uplands gun. Perhaps the oldtimers had some concerns about bursting their barrels that we don't have today. Wingshooting with a proper load in a finely made long fowler is a great way to spend a crisp fall day in the uplands.

 

[Mike Brooks]

The only way I know of to avoid stringing is to stay as close to a "square" shot load as possible.

Yep, I agree, and for wing shooting square loads are pretty standard for me. :thumbsup: But, for shooting stationary targets like ducks on the water you aren't limited with a muzzleloader and can really stoke them up to get some amazing shot patterns and massive kill zones which put alot of meat in the pot.

 

[CZMark]

I sure hope the price of shot comes down by then... :shocked2:

Good luck with that. Lead prices topped out last spring at around $1.80/pound. They hit bottom last Christmas at about $.40. They have been on a steady climb since, and are now at $.80 and rising.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Probably work pretty well on turkey too, Mike.

 

[Mike Brooks]

Probably work pretty well on turkey too, Mike.

That's what my customers tell me! :wink:

 

[45-70cannon]

Don't know much about the topic. Only shoot a TC Renegade 56 and I outshot the snot out my buddies Browning slug gun. He shot off his big mouth about how accurate and how it grouped and so forth, until I told him I had a 56 Renegade that would make his Browning eat dirt......and I did, too!
Renegades have a short barrel anyway, but this one groups her shots all inside a 50cent piece at 25, 50 and 80 yards. Same group.
Somebody mad e good barrel there, they did, they did!

 

[Dphar]

I read some posts or an article somewhere that claimed with all else equal, a longer smoothbore barrel would give a tighter shot pattern.

ie: 32" vs. 38" cylinder bore...the 38" would produce a tighter shot pattern.

Anybody have any actual hands on experience or official reference documentation to know if thats an across-the-board fact and not just an old wives tale?

There are many factors to consider.
One cannot say that a long barrel patterns better without considering the BORING of the barrel.
In my limited experience I can say that the boring of modern ML shotgun barrels leaves a lot to be desired. Most are rougher than they should be. BUT.
A rough breech end of the barrel was thought to work better, giving better velocity than a very smooth barrel would.

Below is a page from W.W. Greeners "The Gun and its Developement" 1896.

1, 2, 3 are ML boring styles.
Many thought that #2 was best for ML guns.
W. Greeners "The Gun" circa 1835 is available on google books as a download. While like all 19th century books it has some pretty strange ideas on internal ballistics it has a lot of information that is of interest.
Bottom line? The long barreled fowler died off pretty rapidly after 1780s-90s in England. They were the leaders in shotgun development.
I think the short barrels came about for several reasons. The most important was wing shooting. This sport requires a faster handling gun than can be obtained with a 42-48" barreled gun.
It was also impossible to make a usable double barrel with long barrels.
George in "British Guns and Rifles" attributes the shorter barrels to improved powders and breech designs that produced better velocity so a long barrel was not needed to produce the desired range and penetration.
But overall I think wing shooting was the real mover in shortening barrels. The better powder and breeches like the Nock made it possible with not loss of performance and in fact may have made the shorter guns of the later era more effective than the long barreled guns.
HOWEVER, most Americans did not own and could not afford a double barreled fowling piece made by Mortimer or Twigg etc and the American fowler barrel did not shorten as quickly. But wing shooting is not the sport of the subsistence or market hunter. For shooting turkeys, ducks on the water or quail in the covey there is no disadvantage to the long barrel.

Dan

 

[Mike Brooks]

Dan makes a couple good points. The best shooting short guns I have shot have all had chambered breeches, not quite a Nock styled breech, but a plug that is chambered with tapered sides and the vent drilled through the side at the rear. I have found these guns to shot hard and not blow patterns.
I have two original flint doubles that are breeched this way and they are exceptional shooters.

 

[robinghewitt]

Barrels became generally shorter after Nock's PB, bore size increased. Muzzle loading perfection was achieved with the live pigeon gun when personal opinion stopped clouding the issue and guns were judged by wagers won or lost.

I did some pattern testing with a 38" 20 bore double flint, pre-Nock breeching, for a magazine article I was writing. I found the pattern started to blow wide open as soon as I passed 40 gns of powder which surprised me. Would be interesting to revisit it and check the velocity :hmm:

 

[kherring]

I guess I'll throw my hat in the ring here. I have a 20ga cylinder bored flint fowler with a 40" barrel. With 60 gr of 2f goex an 1 oz of #6 it kills doves. I don't have any scientific facts for it but fried dove and gravy sure is good.