Maximum Range Flintlock

[nkbj]

If you were designing a flintlock rifle to take game at the maximum possible distances, pushing the envelope of your knowledge and ability, what would you have for...

Caliber of barrel?
Rifling pattern?
Rate of twist?
Length of barrel?
Pan and flash hole?
Ignition channel (breech) design?
Stock configuration?
Trigger design?
Style of sights?

 

[Lonegun1894]

What kind of game are we talking about? Rabbit and squirrel, turkey, deer, etc?

Personally, as an all around anything I might need to hunt type rifle, for me, the Lyman GPR with the stock sights comes very close with the exception of I either replaced my front sights on all my MLs with narrower sights or filed the sides to make them narrower for a more precise sight picture. No matter what, at least in my case, the limiting factor is me and my sight, and not so much the caliber of my weapon when using iron sights, and I don't like apertures or scopes or anything more advanced on MLs, so I stay with irons on old design rifles.

 

[54ball]

If you were designing a flintlock rifle to take game at the maximum possible distances, pushing the envelope of your knowledge and ability, what would you have for...

Caliber of barrel? 4bore
Rifling pattern? radius
Rate of twist? 1/72
Length of barrel? at least 72 inches
Pan and flash hole?deep pan, at least 1/8 vent hole
Ignition channel (breech) design?Threaded standard breech
Stock configuration? full stock with rampart trunnions at balance point
Trigger design? high pinned
Style of sights? iron blade and notch with the assistance of a telescoped spotter in the blockhouse

Should be good for one thousand yards. Legend says Washington's Continentals had a smoothbore of similar configuration that could hit a piece of writing paper at 600 yards.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

For me I'd do the following for game in North America:

Caliber of barrel: .58 or .62

Rifling pattern:Forsyth style

Rate of twist: 1:104

Length of barrel: 36" straight sided

Pan and flash hole: White Lightning

Ignition channel (breech) design:
Standard breech

Stock configuration: Jager

Trigger design:Double set

Style of sights: Jaeger flip up 3 bladed

Maximum range would be 200 yards, with sights having three leaves, set for 100, 150, and 200 yards. Forsyth rifling was meant to accurately throw a patched round ball from a caplock, as far as 200 yards with very little sight adjustment as the powder loads were intended to be very large. So..., if you used such large loads you might not need adjustable sights, but a three-leafed rear sight would allow you to go to lesser powder loads.

The Rice barrel company I am told sometimes makes limited runs of .62 caliber Forsyth rifled barrels.

NOTE: Forsyth designed his caplock rifle barrels to give him the option of reaching out 200 yards on large game with a very large, patched round ball... he said his minimum was 14 bore on deer sized game..., but he wrote in his book that a shot beyond 150 yards would be very very rare, that 200 yards was really the limit, and that he himself had never had more than a 100 yard shot in woods.

LD

 

[Wes/Tex]

Think I would tend to go with most of Dave's thoughts with the exception of a 38 to 40 inch barrel. Since projectile wasn't mentioned, I'm making the assumption Goodcheer is speaking of patched ball. With any sphere shaped projectile, you run into the same problems hashed out in the post on long distance shooting. Without dragging all that back up and bowing to the problems that will encountered with that ballistic shape, I think Dave's range and sight estimate are valid. Yes, balls will shoot beyond that range and yes, it can be done with accuracy. But you're facing the drop in feet and wind drift about inches to a foot or more. For hunting, we deserve to give the hunted animal our best and most humane effort. years ago when we were working on how to convince the state to adopt a muzzleloading season for us, our first admission was to accept the limitations imposed by the weapons and ammunition we would use. I'm the first to admit now that we never once conceived of where the technology and sport would eventually go. For that reason alone, I've always thought of a hunting range closer to 100 than 200 yards. We knew of Minie balls and figured the high probability of their use, added it to the equation. Still, in the 'traditional' end, I'm always made to think of stalking to the most effective short range and shooting from there. Sorry, sermon over...somebody help me down off this soap box, please! :v

 

[tenngun]

In the early 17th cent jagers with early rifles were shooting compititions at nearly 300 yards. I'm thinking with 60-70 cal rifles you could build a house under its midrange trajectory. Velocities would be in the 3-400 fps at that range...so you would need lots of lead.
Beound 100-150 yards it gets real hard to tell range, and 25 yards off in your guestamite could mean shooting over or under a deer sized target.
How far were you thinking of shooting. For me 50 yards is a long shot.

 

[Many Klatch]

The Forum held an Extra Long Range Match last year. The target was a 2 foot by 6 foot at 400 yards. The match was 20 shots winner was the one with the most hits. My buddy Lazarus and I did our shooting at Friendship on a quiet weekend. I got 3 hits he got 2.

I shot my .54 flintlock rifle. The Getz barrel has 1 in 55 twist and round bottom grooves. I was shooting a .526 ball with .012 spit patch over 75 grains of Goex 3F. Open iron sights.

We shot off a bench and used a spotting scope to see the fall of the shot.

In my opinion there is not sufficient accuracy in a roundball at that range to reliably hit anything with one shot. However, if the target is dumb enough to stand there for 20 shots, you might get a hit or two.

By the way, the match is on again this year. You should try it.

Many Klatch

 

[nkbj]

We might be moving thereabouts northern Indiana in the next year or so. My "longest range" flinter right now is a TC fitted with a GM drop-in .62 rifled by Mr. Hoyt (the one nick named the rattler because of what it does to the quilting room windows :haha: ).
With the astigmatism in my shooting eye elevation is becoming difficult. Going to try a tang peep and see if it helps.

 

[Rifleman1776]

At the risk of offending you, that is a silly hypothetical question.
The ml rifle with round ball is an ancient firearm with limited capabilities compared to modern guns.
It's effective range for hunting is limited. Trying to stretch that gets into a never-never land of wild notions and missed or wounded game. Stick with and enjoy the ml for what it is or go modern. That's my tuppence. :v

 

[nkbj]

No more offensive than usual. :haha:
I asked the question because people know stuff and if I listen I can learn stuff that's new to me.
I'd really enjoy finding out what experiences folks have had with those fast twist flinter Great Plains Hunters. I'd have one myself except that they didn't make any lefthanded flinter fast twist barrels. Made everything else but not those!

 

[FishDFly]

If you were designing a flintlock rifle to take game at the maximum possible distances, pushing the envelope of your knowledge and ability, what would you have for...

Caliber of barrel?
Rifling pattern?
Rate of twist?
Length of barrel?
Pan and flash hole?
Ignition channel (breech) design?
Stock configuration?
Trigger design?
Style of sights?

Let's be honest, it's not about the equipment and money spent. The summary is, "how good are you at accurate shooting and what is your yardage limit personally in under poor conditions"?

Most folk consider 100 yards under ideal conditions as maximum, most prefer 75 or so, as posted here over the year.

 

[galamb]

Well, since you didn't specify "round ball" and you want max distance, I wouldn't use a PRB anyhow.

This is something I'm actually considering building (someday) -

Caliber of barrel? 45 cal
Rifling pattern? square rifled .004" deep
Rate of twist? 1:28
Length of barrel? 46" B weight swamped, cut to 44" so I would have a 2" piece for engraving bullets (.458 350 grain)
Pan and flash hole? pan - unmodified on a Chambers Late Ketland - flash hole 5/16"
Ignition channel (breech) design? Hawken style flint patent breech (plug welded to the tang so it's no longer "hooked") - only build with patent breeches - personal rule - chamber drilled out to .38" - face/chamber/channel polished)
Stock configuration? Hawken or Leman full-stock - something with some "meat" to it
Trigger design? single set Kentuckee (MBS)
Style of sights? front - globe, rear - Creedmore

 

[FishDFly]

What is the cost of your creation and what is the maximum effective range with today's average shooter who does not know much except to ask questions on the .www?

Lot's of folks ask here, how do I load and how do I clean my rifle and then, how far can I shoot to kill a critter?

Jack O'Conner is rolling over.

Ned Roberts is looking for a bottle of Maker's Mark.

 

[galamb]

Richard, I think everything comes down to perspective.

I came to muzzle loading "hunting" from/in addition to my bow hunting (will always be a bow hunter first).

For "ME" getting the ability to make an accurate and effective "kill shot" out to 50 or 75 yards (100 yards if the wind is right and Bambi is co-operating) expanded my "killing range" upwards of 300%.

My deer rifle (40 cal) is a "weapon of mass destruction" when put up against either my longbow or recurve.

So from "my perspective" that is a MASSIVE IMPROVEMENT, akin to the development of gunpowder in the first place.

And I CAN hunt successfully with a 40 cal, which is legal where I hunt, because I "hunt like a bowhunter" even with the rifle in my hands.

Others come from the Center Fire world and I don't judge their reasoning even if it's just to get extra time in special seasons.

For them, if they were firing a 30-06 or a 7 MM etc, the MASSIVE RESTRICTION that they feel must seem like an F1 driver being sent out on the track with a 1970's Lada.

So I do understand why they are looking for a "can of snake-oil" that will turn a muzzle loader into a magnum center fire - and when that never happens many move on to other hobbies if they can't learn to live with and flourish within the limitations.

 

[pargent]

Get a Witworth and convert it to flint, hope you like recoil .

 

[nkbj]

galamb,
My thinking has been along those lines too but less length and a .52 bore. I really like the 24" twist .458 bore in percussion as it handles heavy weight as-cast bullets. In flint my thoughts were to increase the bore and decrease the twist.
But right now my flinting is going to be mostly rb and the longer barrel is the .62. The other prospect is fitting a tang sight to the TC .58 flint Hawken. The bore diameter is just right for minies after they're patched and the 575213 and 577611 molds both give thumb pressure tight fit. Might try out a plug to give a flat base instead of hollow. Could be some kinda fun. And after all, that's why I shoot front stuffers!

 

[galamb]

I looked at doing the rifle I described two or three years back, almost as a kind of parody to the many questions I got when guys would tease me about using my muzzle loader when I could be shooting a "real gun" (I hunt my muzzle loader in the center fire season).

Anyhow, after reading some of Idaho Ron's posts and getting a couple questions answered from him it has come a little closer to the surface again.

For me that rifle would simply be a project/test to see what it could accomplish.

I hunt pretty dense hardwoods and unless I spent a few weeks with a chainsaw mowing down most of the forest I could never take a 75 yard shot anyhow.

So I have no real use for a rifle as described, but am sure I could sell it in no time if I could show a decent group at 250 yards or so.

 

[Pete G]

George Washington's "Wall Gun"

 

[bpd303]

I've always wanted one...
http://www.history.army.mil/news/2013/130325a_amusettes.html

 

[palonghunter]

In my case, the limitation would be mine, not the gun's. I generally don't shoot at deer past 75 yards with my flintlock. My eyes aren't what they used to be. If I want to shoot past 100 yards, I need a scope.