Minnie ball accuracy?

[32 ballard xl]

REGARDING THE ORIGINAL QUESTION THIS THREAD PROPOSES MINNIE BALLS ARE EITHER ACCURATE IN YOUR RIFLE OR THEY ARE NOT. THERE ARE ONLY A FEW ADHUSTMENTS POSSIBLE, IN MY EXPERIENCE, AND THEY ARE POWDER CHARGE AND THE LUBE YOU PUT IN THE GROOVES, IF ANY.
WITH PRD THERE A NUMBER OF ADJUSTMENTS NOT AVAILABLE TO THE MINIE.

DUTCH SCHOULRZ

Well.......maybe. There seems to be considerable evidence that having the Mine' no more than 0.01 under size really makes an improvement.

 

[nkbj]

yakipreacher,

If you want to check the diameter you need for your rifle with an odd number (3, 5, whatever) of grooves...
Use something to increase the diameter of the skirt on a minie. Like sit the tail on a ball bearing or something and hit it on the nose with a hammer. Then, while holding the nose with a good gripping set of channel locks or pair of pliers, very carefully use the rifling at the bore to machine down the outside diameter of the minie skirt. Then the minie skirt can be measured with micrometers. After repeating the process a few times a set of figures can be developed to indicate the diameter.

If the bore is just really really bigger than mold manufacturers felt like making molds for there's still hope.
Options #1. You can lap out the diameter on your molds. Or, there's Erik Ohlen in Corvallis, Oregon. He has increased the band diameter on a 58 and 69 minies for me to have them drop out at precisely the desired size. He is very good.
Options #2. You can add a little paper. In days gone by it has been reported on the forum about putting one single layer of tissue paper around a previously lubed minie with good results. I've never had the bore to try it in but considering the brilliance of such a simple solution (so obvious in hindsight!) I keep the knowledge filed away between my ears in case the occasion arises. Another way of adding paper is to paper patch the minie (wrapped wet and let it shrink on with drying), then size to fit the bore. It's a lot easier than it sounds. Another is to have the minie undersized and dry wrap with a single layer of paper at loading, folding the extra paper up into the hollow base to keep the paper from slipping off the bullet as it travels down the bore to rest upon the powder charge.

There's another option that I'm surprised no one seems to use... a pound swage. Pound swages were really common in the 1800's as the way to make bullets fit your gun.

Hope you get to make lots of elk sausage!

 

[TFoley]

If you want to see how accurate a Minié ball can be, you need to see capandball checking out his original P53 rifled musket at 100m. Using only 45gr of 1 1/2Fg Swiss powder he puts five consecutive shots into about 2", in the rain. Without swabbing the gun out once - that is not permitted in the military match.

 

[TFoley]

I found a guy on Gunbroker who sells solid base .575 Minies???

Kind of defeats the whole point of the Minie bullet?

If it has a solid base, then it is not a Minié bullet.

 

[Eterry]

That is a solid base conical. Not to be confused with the Minie. A properly sized Minie can rival a prb, it is just a little more tedious to reach that point. My Carbine shoots 2.73" moa with the Lee 500 gr minie, shimmed to .001 under bore; not to shabby with short radius military iron sights. I'm thinking of attaching a tang peep aperture, see what happens.

 

[ResearchPress]

A properly sized Minie can rival a prb, it is just a little more tedious to reach that point.....

Depends what distance you are playing at. Nudge things out a little and a Minie will outshoot a prb every time.

David

 

[TFoley]

Yup, try a Minié at 600 yards, and then a PRB.

I'm sure you'll see the difference...

 

[Straekat]

In the 80s, I had a Navy Arms '61 Springfield rifled musket. I regularly shot it at 100, 200, and 300 yards using a standard military charge with a Minnie. One day when I was getting range time in at 100 yards my loading was interrupted by someone when I was ramming the Minnie down. Because of the interruption, I didn't recall pulling the rammer out. When I pulled the trigger, the recoil was much heavier then before and almost knocked me backwards. I checked out the Springfield and didn't see anything wrong, no bulges, no cracks, nadda. I figured it was time to quit and check the gun out in more detail after cleaning it at home.

I looked for the ram rod to put it back where it belonged, and couldn't find it. I realized why the recoil was heavier than usual. Walking towards the target, I saw the ram road cork-screwed into the ground at the base of the target. It dropped five feet over one hundred yards. There was no trace of where the Minnie went after it shoved the ram rod out of the way when it left the barrel.

Prior to that episode, I knew Minnies were relatively accurate. After that episode, I discovered Minnie balls with a ram rod on top aren't all that accurate. The ram rod came closest to the target although it didn't hit it at all. The Minnie went to only the Flying Spaghetti Monster knows. 30 plus years later, it still hasn't turned up. I only did it once in my life, and that was enough of a lesson to always pay attention to how I was loading a b.p. firearm.

Moral is, if you want accuracy with Minnies, remember to pull the ram rod out of the barrel completely.

 

[yakipreacher]

yakipreacher,

If you want to check the diameter you need for your rifle with an odd number (3, 5, whatever) of grooves...
Use something to increase the diameter of the skirt on a minie. Like sit the tail on a ball bearing or something and hit it on the nose with a hammer. Then, while holding the nose with a good gripping set of channel locks or pair of pliers, very carefully use the rifling at the bore to machine down the outside diameter of the minie skirt. Then the minie skirt can be measured with micrometers. After repeating the process a few times a set of figures can be developed to indicate the diameter.

If the bore is just really really bigger than mold manufacturers felt like making molds for there's still hope.
Options #1. You can lap out the diameter on your molds. Or, there's Erik Ohlen in Corvallis, Oregon. He has increased the band diameter on a 58 and 69 minies for me to have them drop out at precisely the desired size. He is very good.
Options #2. You can add a little paper. In days gone by it has been reported on the forum about putting one single layer of tissue paper around a previously lubed minie with good results. I've never had the bore to try it in but considering the brilliance of such a simple solution (so obvious in hindsight!) I keep the knowledge filed away between my ears in case the occasion arises. Another way of adding paper is to paper patch the minie (wrapped wet and let it shrink on with drying), then size to fit the bore. It's a lot easier than it sounds. Another is to have the minie undersized and dry wrap with a single layer of paper at loading, folding the extra paper up into the hollow base to keep the paper from slipping off the bullet as it travels down the bore to rest upon the powder charge.

There's another option that I'm surprised no one seems to use... a pound swage. Pound swages were really common in the 1800's as the way to make bullets fit your gun.

Hope you get to make lots of elk sausage!

I am not familiar with a pound swage? could you clarify? Thanks.... Jerry

 

[jimirwin]

I was successful shooting a Navy Arms (Miroku) musket in Oregon. Set a record at 200 yds 5 shots, military sights, minie' ball only, any military position except prone. I fired from sitting position. 48-2X as I remember, but that was a long time ago (early 80s) on 200 yd target. 4 inch 10-ring; 2 inch X

 

[jimirwin]

BTW .... I used precision cast Minie's (from RCBS mould) in all distances and load of 65 grn GOEX 2fg powder. I used less powder at short ranges, as required to have shots hit point of aim. 35 or 45 grns, as I remember.

That was a darn fine shooting musket! Wish I'd not sold it to a friend. A Colt 2nd gen musket I had shot very well, too.

The guy who won the most was a dentist from Oregon, as I remember. International champ, too. Terry Savage, as I remember. Shot an original Enfield.

 

[nkbj]

Yes sir.
It's a swaging cylinder with a ram with the nose shape cut on one end.
The bullet goes into the cylinder, the ram goes on top and then it gets pounded with a mallet.
To remove the bullet the ram just gets pounded to push the bullet on out the bottom end.

 

[45man]

I have much experience with the Minie' ball It must fit tight to the rifling first. All the bullet and not just the flare from the pressure. I lapped many molds for a good fit to make the rifles hit at 200 yards better then at 20 yards.

 

[Eterry]

Depends what distance you are playing at. Nudge things out a little and a Minie will outshoot a prb every time.

David

Sir, you are correct. I didn't put enough thought into my post.

What I probably should have said is it is easier to get a muzzleloader to shoot decent groups at Hunting Ranges, (under 100 yards) with a prb. A 50 cal can use a .490 or .495 ball and different patches to create a tight load. Muskets and Musketoons using Minies don't have a cloth patch to take up the slack, so a tight fit is critical. Also. a prb is a prb, but there are Dozens of different weights, designs, & shapes of Minie balls. Most muskets will prefer one over the rest.

That being said, the prb is a horrible design with no aerodynamic features and a low BC compared to the Minie, and getting past hunting ranges will prove this. I haven't hunted with a prb in 8 years; not because they wont work, I just want to use ACW equipment. I have shot Minies on paper out to 300 yards, something much harder to do with a prb.

 

[Rockvillerich]

Having worked with North South shooting teams I can tell you there are tons of things to do with mini design. Skirt thickness to match loads, and bullet length/weight that have a huge effect on performance, along with sizing and lube. These guys make their own molds with various inserts, shapes, lube grove designs, and with more patience than I posses, work up highly accurate loads for anything from hunting to target work.

 

[Melnic]

FYI,
Sizing dies that fit into a reloading press. Note a coned ram at the bottom for a minie
https://www.northeasttradeco.com/online-store/SIZING-DIES-Threaded-c22095488

 

[dave951]

I shoot North South Skirmish aka NSSA. Yes, we do have a couple sutlers (vendors) who will make sizing dies to fit a standard reloading press like the RCBS or any press with 7/8x14 thread. One who doesn't advertise on our main site but is well respected is Tom Crone. Log into the NSSA forum for more info. I have a number of his sizing dies and they are top quality. The ones from John at Northeast are good as well. Sizing dies are generally made in two configurations, first is to fit into a holder in an arbor press. Those aren't threaded. Second are those threaded to fit a standard reloading press, these are my preference by far. Both work, one is just easier to use.

And yes, serious NSSA competitors will go to great lengths to work up accurate and repeatable loads for muskets. Generally speaking, the main things that affect accuracy are- bullet size to bore, lube, powder charge/type/amount. cap type, lead alloy type, and minie design. Some guns like a lighter minie, others a heavier one. My PHs both like the lighter version of the Hogdon with the extended base plug. In relatively calm conditions, they're like shooting lasers. In high winds, they don't fare as well as guns that can shoot the heavier minie.

 

[45man]

Making molds is a craft I never expected to do. Then I got a Smithy lathe-mill-drill, the cheap one. I went to a foundry and bought high quality cast iron risers. Talk about tough stuff. No way to mill so I spent hours in the yard with an angle grinder to make rectangles for a vise. I milled to fit the base of my milling table to use the gibs. Left hand and right hand taps so the blocks close to center. Guide pins, etc. Then a friends father had a stroke and I bought his Smithy Granite and it came with everything but the best was a Vertex so I could do away with a vise with a home made angle plate. I cut the cherry cutting edges easy now. Oil hardening tool steel rod for a cherry, $5 for 3', takes 3" for a cherry. Quenching can warp so I figured out how to do it by putting the cherry in my drill press, spin slow to heat and open the chuck to drop straight in oil. Then temper in the kitchen oven.
I had a pile of aircraft aluminum sawed in strips from when I worked at the airline. Never knew what I would do with them but I cut mold blocks and it is a chore to make perfect blocks. I found air vents only needed to be cut on one face.
Ran into a problem of out of round bullets since expansion of blocks is not even. I found to bring blocks to heat and drop the cherry in to turn by hand with a wrench will make a round bullet. I make mostly revolver bullets and have shot one hole at 50 yards and my 45-70 BFR revolver has done 2-1/2" at 500 yards. I never followed all the net stuff, never drew a picture for a bullet, just cut the cherries as I went to discover mine were better then any you buy. I shoot plain base but use a gas check in rifles. Most do not know what a GC does. It is a skid stop so the bullet takes the rifling after lead skids. It is OK to have skids at the nose but never at the base. What I have learned might be legend. A picture of my setup and a group shot at 50 yards with my bullet. .500 JRH BFR revolver.

 

[45man]

I have made many BP molds but do not know anyone else that does it. I have not done RB since it needs a swing cutter. A minie' would be easy with any base plug desired. However to say the north-south guys make their own molds is insane. I did not know how to run a mill or lathe at the start. I learned as I went along. Believe me to cut a bullet cherry to less then .0005" and figure what the final size will be and the heat effect is out of sight. As a bullet changes diameter that all changes. To cut for a GC to crimp correct is a thing to turn you to a nut case. NO, no one can make a mold since just making a square set of blocks that mate and then pin them. Now you need a sprue plate.

 

[Nessmuck56]