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My Ferguson Rifle in action
- Thread starter Grizzled Roberts
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Grizzled Roberts
54 Cal.
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It has a real dark oil stain like the originals. That was me at the Spring Shoot last year. The two fellows below me kind of aiming up hill were shooting at a pig silly-wet at 300 yards! I had hoped to be able to move a couple of the 4 foot bears out to 300 but this did not come to pass.
The pigs were about a foot tall and 2:1/2 feet long. We did not actually hit the pig but most of the shots would have hit the bigger bear target.
The fellow with the blue shirt missed the pig by an inch or two low! We are talking about shooting
a round ball, from a flintlock with a military trigger pull, offhand at 300 yards! In the 45 minutes of time I had to work with we shot about 38 rounds before the clock ran down. One of the modern shooters watching the demo noticed that during the string of shots we had fired over the 45 minutes, we did not clean the rifle even once!
I doubt I will be doing this at Friendship again
There is just no good place to set up my demonstration at Friendship. If I take the Ferguson to Friendship I will just shoot it behind the blockhouse one afternoon. Just for grins.
:thumbsup:
The pigs were about a foot tall and 2:1/2 feet long. We did not actually hit the pig but most of the shots would have hit the bigger bear target.
The fellow with the blue shirt missed the pig by an inch or two low! We are talking about shooting
a round ball, from a flintlock with a military trigger pull, offhand at 300 yards! In the 45 minutes of time I had to work with we shot about 38 rounds before the clock ran down. One of the modern shooters watching the demo noticed that during the string of shots we had fired over the 45 minutes, we did not clean the rifle even once!
I doubt I will be doing this at Friendship again
There is just no good place to set up my demonstration at Friendship. If I take the Ferguson to Friendship I will just shoot it behind the blockhouse one afternoon. Just for grins.
:thumbsup:
Bryanbrown
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Next time Ricky and I are at the range with our Fergusons I will try and get some video clips and some more shots for folks. This particular outing was something of a test of my ability with the camera. I think this picture in particular was most spectacular. If anyone is curious it was taken with a Nikon D70 on burst mode, from a monopod.
Grizzled Roberts
54 Cal.
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Candle hard Deer tallow works but I have problems getting this consistancy while rendering. Most of the time the tallow comes out too soft and blows out of the threads. I came up with a non tallow soltion that I use most of the time now. It will get me to at least 48 rounds :wink:
two parts bees wax
one part Crisco all vegetable shortening
It took me a couple of months and one minor pot fire in my kitchen to come up with this!
I tried bees wax by itself and it is too hard.
Under 30 degrees it will stiffen and you start out with a no shot bayonet platform! When it is 97 degrees it does not loosen up too much.
If any of you folks have Narragansett Ferguson's
and would actually like to shoot them, PT Me and I will be glad to help you cut a bunch of corners.
:thumbsup:
two parts bees wax
one part Crisco all vegetable shortening
It took me a couple of months and one minor pot fire in my kitchen to come up with this!
I tried bees wax by itself and it is too hard.
Under 30 degrees it will stiffen and you start out with a no shot bayonet platform! When it is 97 degrees it does not loosen up too much.
If any of you folks have Narragansett Ferguson's
and would actually like to shoot them, PT Me and I will be glad to help you cut a bunch of corners.
:thumbsup:
Grizzled Roberts
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I forgot the important part, melt the substance in a small cup and dip your cleaned breach threads
in the wax. I ususually prop up the breach, top
side down on a paper plate or slab of clean wood
if at an out door event.
:thumbsup:
in the wax. I ususually prop up the breach, top
side down on a paper plate or slab of clean wood
if at an out door event.
:thumbsup:
Grizzled Roberts
54 Cal.
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The story is not over yet! After I went to the range with the tallow and proper .615 ball, after a few shots the bore would foul up and the accuracy would go down the tubes. Mind you that in 1776 Patrick Ferguson shot close to 50 rounds
in his famous demonstration in front of the King.
So my work was not over. I got to thinking.....back in the day when I loaded lead bullets in my handgun cartridges, the lead bullets always had a grease ring or two to keep the bore slick and avoid rapid lead fouling.
You can't run naked lead balls down a rifled barrel with out grease of some kind.
So the next time I melted the tallow for the breach, I took a pair of tweezers and dipped the .615 balls in the tallow also. When I went back to the range the next time, with this tallowed breach and ball, my Ferguson Rifle
became the 1776 assault rifle just like Ferguson's rifle back then. That is when the fun started. I have dipped the balls in pure bees wax
and this works pretty good.
When I post tomorrow I will discuss the most pain in the arse aspect of the Ferguson rifle!!!
:thumbsup:
in his famous demonstration in front of the King.
So my work was not over. I got to thinking.....back in the day when I loaded lead bullets in my handgun cartridges, the lead bullets always had a grease ring or two to keep the bore slick and avoid rapid lead fouling.
You can't run naked lead balls down a rifled barrel with out grease of some kind.
So the next time I melted the tallow for the breach, I took a pair of tweezers and dipped the .615 balls in the tallow also. When I went back to the range the next time, with this tallowed breach and ball, my Ferguson Rifle
became the 1776 assault rifle just like Ferguson's rifle back then. That is when the fun started. I have dipped the balls in pure bees wax
and this works pretty good.
When I post tomorrow I will discuss the most pain in the arse aspect of the Ferguson rifle!!!
:thumbsup:
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On a scale of 1 to 10 the ferguson rates an 11 in the cool factor. Thanks for the pics.
well ya got til Xmas to finish,I was over on the rifleshoppe site and saw the price,for the parts...woooeeee.1595.00US for the PARTS,so it'll have to be Xmas now and not qiute sure which Xmas.
Funny yer lube is the same as I use on my paper cartridges 2\1...I agree 11 on a scale of 10
Funny yer lube is the same as I use on my paper cartridges 2\1...I agree 11 on a scale of 10
Grizzled Roberts
54 Cal.
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Well folks I have mentioned the high points ( rate of fire, accuracy and the non fouling ) so just to be fair I will now show you the warts!!!!
After I had the shooting part figured out, then I Had to figure out how to clean the dang thing! Dang near all of the shine goes off the penny when you get to this stage! Black powder, lead and tallow combine for the nastiest fouling you will see in a gun!
When I got the Ferguson home I went to the internet and typed in Ferguson Rifle. This one fellow said to clean it using solvent soaked patches ( about a 100 ) and 45 minutes of elbow grease. He was dead right about the patches and grease. So for the next two months I tested different cleaning methods. All kinds of vile chemical concoctions ( I wished this site had spell check! ) I got the time down to 20 minutes and 50 patches. I could not imagine a whole company of riflemen having to clean in this way.
There had to be a better way. I was at King's Mountain national Park with Bryan and he suggested using boiling hot water. I had used water before but not boiling hot. The Ferguson Rifle's barrel is held in by captive barrel wedges. It is easy to remove the barrel take out the single lock screw, the tang screw and the forward sling mount screw. Then you run into another problem. When you take the barrel out of a muzzle loader you just grab the muzzle and lift it out of the stock. If you do this with a Ferguson you will split the stock in two due to the breach that runs all the way through the rifle. The best way I have found is to turn the rifle up side down with the barrel resting on your knee. Gently tap the breach with a wooden mallet and the barrel will fall out of the stock.
On you lap ( you should be setting down for this! )
So I took out the barrel and rested the muzzle on a flat board and the tang screw in a notch on a tree. Bryan boiled up a half gallon of water So I poured the very hot water down the barrel from the breach end. The first lesson I learned is how fast a cold barrel will heat up when you are pouring boiling water through it!
When the water first exits the muzzle it is the nastiest looking black mess you have ever seen!
You keep pouring and the water will come out clean! I have the breach and lock on another flat board and I pour the super hot water on them. I also have to level the barrel and pour down the breach. The lock cleans right up, the barrel will be good but you still have to wire brush the screw breach itself and run tight patches through the breach itself to get the gunk out of there.
A few solvent soaked patches will clean the barrel now. Mopst everything is ready for the Balistol now except....The actual breach plug of the rifle ends at the back of the screw breach.
I do not understand why they did not have the actual breach tapped at the same time they tapped the screw breach threads. They did not so the actual breach is flat kind of in a shallow hole.
You will need to have a small 45 degree tool and clean this area because it is subject to draw rust! So now Thanks to Bryan, I can clean the Ferguson in 15 minutes and about 15 patches.
You guys still want one?????
So I have showed the positive and negitive, why did the British not support Patrick Ferguson
rifle program? You can't use the excuse "because the British did not use rifles in there battle plan".
The British had around 1200 model 1776 Tower rifles over here. 800 of them were delivered before the first Ferguson was produced.
The Jaeger riflemen had over a thousand of there own rifles and some issue rifles.
When the British won a battle or skirmish, The captured American rifles were given to Loyalist
Rifle companies.
So the British did use rifles.
My thoughts on why the Ferguson was not adopted for the British.
1. Cost. The Ferguson rifle cost 4 pounds to make. A Brown Bess cost 1 pound. They had bean counters in 1776 also.
2. The Ferguson rifle has a weak stock where the massive breach passes through the wood. All of the original Ferguson rifles in US museums have repairs in this area. Ferguson Ordinance rifle # 2
the one he demonstrated in front of the king, the one now in the tower of London, had a repair in this area. 18th century soldiers were very rough with their firelocks. When in formation the British liked to slam the butts of their muskets on the ground to make the ground shake! They were
trained to used their muskets as a club, battering ram and bayonet paltform. The Ferguson Rifle was too delicate for the Army! I have been shooting mine for several years now. I treat it like I treat my squirrel gun!
3. Tallow. Each rifle had to have tallow on the threads and ball to operate. The vision of Ferguson running through the British camp the night before Brandywine scrounging all of the tallow he could find, still troubles me. Something is wrong with this picture!
4. Cleaning. 1/2 gallon of boiling water per rifle. When Patrick Ferguson started this project
he wanted 200 rifles for his unit. When Lord Townsend seen the prototype rifle he suggest they buy hundreds of them. Let say Lord Townsend's plan was adopted. Lets say they produced 500 Ferguson Breach loading rifles. That adds uo to 250 gallons of boiling water to clean these rifles.
250 gallons of boiling water in the 18th century?
5. The breach opens up after one full turn. If you slip up and make two turns the breach falls out on the ground. You now have a pike. The breaches were hand fitted to the rifle, they were not interchangable.
This pretty much concludes the information in my article, and is by far my longest post! I have to go rest my two index fingers now!!
:bow:
After I had the shooting part figured out, then I Had to figure out how to clean the dang thing! Dang near all of the shine goes off the penny when you get to this stage! Black powder, lead and tallow combine for the nastiest fouling you will see in a gun!
When I got the Ferguson home I went to the internet and typed in Ferguson Rifle. This one fellow said to clean it using solvent soaked patches ( about a 100 ) and 45 minutes of elbow grease. He was dead right about the patches and grease. So for the next two months I tested different cleaning methods. All kinds of vile chemical concoctions ( I wished this site had spell check! ) I got the time down to 20 minutes and 50 patches. I could not imagine a whole company of riflemen having to clean in this way.
There had to be a better way. I was at King's Mountain national Park with Bryan and he suggested using boiling hot water. I had used water before but not boiling hot. The Ferguson Rifle's barrel is held in by captive barrel wedges. It is easy to remove the barrel take out the single lock screw, the tang screw and the forward sling mount screw. Then you run into another problem. When you take the barrel out of a muzzle loader you just grab the muzzle and lift it out of the stock. If you do this with a Ferguson you will split the stock in two due to the breach that runs all the way through the rifle. The best way I have found is to turn the rifle up side down with the barrel resting on your knee. Gently tap the breach with a wooden mallet and the barrel will fall out of the stock.
On you lap ( you should be setting down for this! )
So I took out the barrel and rested the muzzle on a flat board and the tang screw in a notch on a tree. Bryan boiled up a half gallon of water So I poured the very hot water down the barrel from the breach end. The first lesson I learned is how fast a cold barrel will heat up when you are pouring boiling water through it!
When the water first exits the muzzle it is the nastiest looking black mess you have ever seen!
You keep pouring and the water will come out clean! I have the breach and lock on another flat board and I pour the super hot water on them. I also have to level the barrel and pour down the breach. The lock cleans right up, the barrel will be good but you still have to wire brush the screw breach itself and run tight patches through the breach itself to get the gunk out of there.
A few solvent soaked patches will clean the barrel now. Mopst everything is ready for the Balistol now except....The actual breach plug of the rifle ends at the back of the screw breach.
I do not understand why they did not have the actual breach tapped at the same time they tapped the screw breach threads. They did not so the actual breach is flat kind of in a shallow hole.
You will need to have a small 45 degree tool and clean this area because it is subject to draw rust! So now Thanks to Bryan, I can clean the Ferguson in 15 minutes and about 15 patches.
You guys still want one?????
So I have showed the positive and negitive, why did the British not support Patrick Ferguson
rifle program? You can't use the excuse "because the British did not use rifles in there battle plan".
The British had around 1200 model 1776 Tower rifles over here. 800 of them were delivered before the first Ferguson was produced.
The Jaeger riflemen had over a thousand of there own rifles and some issue rifles.
When the British won a battle or skirmish, The captured American rifles were given to Loyalist
Rifle companies.
So the British did use rifles.
My thoughts on why the Ferguson was not adopted for the British.
1. Cost. The Ferguson rifle cost 4 pounds to make. A Brown Bess cost 1 pound. They had bean counters in 1776 also.
2. The Ferguson rifle has a weak stock where the massive breach passes through the wood. All of the original Ferguson rifles in US museums have repairs in this area. Ferguson Ordinance rifle # 2
the one he demonstrated in front of the king, the one now in the tower of London, had a repair in this area. 18th century soldiers were very rough with their firelocks. When in formation the British liked to slam the butts of their muskets on the ground to make the ground shake! They were
trained to used their muskets as a club, battering ram and bayonet paltform. The Ferguson Rifle was too delicate for the Army! I have been shooting mine for several years now. I treat it like I treat my squirrel gun!
3. Tallow. Each rifle had to have tallow on the threads and ball to operate. The vision of Ferguson running through the British camp the night before Brandywine scrounging all of the tallow he could find, still troubles me. Something is wrong with this picture!
4. Cleaning. 1/2 gallon of boiling water per rifle. When Patrick Ferguson started this project
he wanted 200 rifles for his unit. When Lord Townsend seen the prototype rifle he suggest they buy hundreds of them. Let say Lord Townsend's plan was adopted. Lets say they produced 500 Ferguson Breach loading rifles. That adds uo to 250 gallons of boiling water to clean these rifles.
250 gallons of boiling water in the 18th century?
5. The breach opens up after one full turn. If you slip up and make two turns the breach falls out on the ground. You now have a pike. The breaches were hand fitted to the rifle, they were not interchangable.
This pretty much concludes the information in my article, and is by far my longest post! I have to go rest my two index fingers now!!
:bow:
mark/wi
40 Cal.
It might be long, but very interesting.Thank you. Mark
paulvallandigham
Passed On
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Boiling water doesn't clean any better than tepid water. Its actually the soap you use in the barrel that will clean it, not the water.
You don't need to use a wire brush on anything. Use a standard old toothbrush to clean the threads on both the breech plug( please note the correct spelling of the word "breech"!) and in the barrel.
If you use soap on a cleaning patch to clean the back of the barrel, FIRST, then rinsing the barrel will flush out the soap and crud. The worst thing that can happen doing this first is that some of the soap gets into the barrel and begins to work on dissolving the crud! A damp patch, with a bit of liquid detergent of your choice will clean out most of the black powder crud in any barrel.
Where you do have problems is in loading that lead ball from the breech with nothing to protect the barrel from being leaded. That requires you to use a lead solvent, and a bore brush. There is no other way to get this out of the barrel.
You can shorten your cleaning time by changing the order in which you do things.
1. Put the lead solvent down the barrel with a patch, and work it in with the bore brush, before cleaning the action. Leaven the barrel to sit while the solvent works on the really stuck-on lead.
2. Clean the back of the barrel and action, with a brush, patch and soap and water.
3. Now, use a damp patch and soap to clean the entire length of the barrel.
4. Use that bore brush to loosen any lead that is still there.
5. Rinse out the barrel with Tepid water- not boiling water.
6. Now dry the barrel and parts with dry patches, paper towels, etc.
7. Lube the barrel and breech plug, and internal parts, and reassemble.
8. Wipe off the stock and coat with a good wax to protect the wood and metal during storage.
You don't need to use a wire brush on anything. Use a standard old toothbrush to clean the threads on both the breech plug( please note the correct spelling of the word "breech"!) and in the barrel.
If you use soap on a cleaning patch to clean the back of the barrel, FIRST, then rinsing the barrel will flush out the soap and crud. The worst thing that can happen doing this first is that some of the soap gets into the barrel and begins to work on dissolving the crud! A damp patch, with a bit of liquid detergent of your choice will clean out most of the black powder crud in any barrel.
Where you do have problems is in loading that lead ball from the breech with nothing to protect the barrel from being leaded. That requires you to use a lead solvent, and a bore brush. There is no other way to get this out of the barrel.
You can shorten your cleaning time by changing the order in which you do things.
1. Put the lead solvent down the barrel with a patch, and work it in with the bore brush, before cleaning the action. Leaven the barrel to sit while the solvent works on the really stuck-on lead.
2. Clean the back of the barrel and action, with a brush, patch and soap and water.
3. Now, use a damp patch and soap to clean the entire length of the barrel.
4. Use that bore brush to loosen any lead that is still there.
5. Rinse out the barrel with Tepid water- not boiling water.
6. Now dry the barrel and parts with dry patches, paper towels, etc.
7. Lube the barrel and breech plug, and internal parts, and reassemble.
8. Wipe off the stock and coat with a good wax to protect the wood and metal during storage.
Flintfan69
40 Cal.
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paulvallandigham said:
Yes, that's another way to skin the cat, but I think Griz was trying to discover how Patrick Ferguson might have cleaned his rifle in 1776.
The use of hot water is very effective at cleaning any black powder firearm. You are correct that hot water is no more effective than tepid water, the difference is that hot water will evaporate very quickly when applied to a metal surface which has also been heated (by the boiling water). The chance of after rust is reduced by the use of hot water. The problem with soaps and solvents, is that they are too effective at cleaning. They can thoroughly remove all traces of black powder, along with any greases or oils that are on or in the barrel. If you are using natural lubes, like beeswax and tallow, you should never use one the harsh modern solvents or soaps.
Thanks for the long hours of research you have put into this subject Griz, I'm a couple weeks away from finishing my own Ferguson rifle. Your notes have been indispensable as I prepare to head to the rifle range. I'll try to post some pics as soon as I can.
Forrest
Grizzled Roberts
54 Cal.
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Forrest, I forgot to mention...The Ferguson rifle used a high grade German powder, just like the Jeagers and Tower Rifles. With the short chamber in mine I had considered having the chamber reamed out so I could get more powder behind the ball. Master shooter and historic gunsmith John Braxton suggested I try Schutzen 3F. This made
a major positive change in the report of the rifle. I no longer needed to ream out the chamber.
I am happy with it now!!!
Forrest, when you get to shooting your Ferguson if you have any questions e mail me at [email protected] I am so happy to see another Ferguson owner that wants to shoot his rifle!
Over my two months of tests I tried tepid water, I tried all sorts of soaps even Simple Green. The 18th century method of hot water works far better
than any other method. I am not talking about fouling from a muzzleloader.
:thumbsup:
a major positive change in the report of the rifle. I no longer needed to ream out the chamber.
I am happy with it now!!!
Forrest, when you get to shooting your Ferguson if you have any questions e mail me at [email protected] I am so happy to see another Ferguson owner that wants to shoot his rifle!
Over my two months of tests I tried tepid water, I tried all sorts of soaps even Simple Green. The 18th century method of hot water works far better
than any other method. I am not talking about fouling from a muzzleloader.
:thumbsup:
paulvallandigham
Passed On
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Did you really thing you are the first person to clean black powder fowling out of a breechloader??? On this forum?????? Please, there are lots of us who know very well how to clean any breechloader, even if we have never handled a Ferguson. And we have had years of experience doing so.
If you want to burn your hands on a hot barrel, I am the first to recognize your God Given Right to do so! It rates right up there with your Right to Pee on that electric fence to discover for yourself why others don't recommend it! :shocked2: :shake: :rotf: :surrender:
And, Hot water does cause flash rusting, because it DOES evaporate so fast. The whole reason for using tepid water is to prevent flash rusting! Best wishes to both of you. :hatsoff:
If you want to burn your hands on a hot barrel, I am the first to recognize your God Given Right to do so! It rates right up there with your Right to Pee on that electric fence to discover for yourself why others don't recommend it! :shocked2: :shake: :rotf: :surrender:
And, Hot water does cause flash rusting, because it DOES evaporate so fast. The whole reason for using tepid water is to prevent flash rusting! Best wishes to both of you. :hatsoff:
Grizzled Roberts
54 Cal.
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The Ferguson is not my first BP breech loader. But due to the extra deep riflings and the large amount of hard wax that gets blown into the riflings and breach threads it will not clean up as easy as a standard black powder breechloader.
I have been using this method to clean my Ferguson
rifle for over 2,1/2 years and there has never been any rust on the rifle. I only burned my hand once at the start of this project 2,1/2 years ago.
I am a slow learner but I do learn. And you are right I do have the right to clean my rifle as I see fit and guess what you also have the right to clean up your rifles as you wish. We both are doing what we know is right in our own minds. Why don't we just leave it like this?
:thumbsup:
I have been using this method to clean my Ferguson
rifle for over 2,1/2 years and there has never been any rust on the rifle. I only burned my hand once at the start of this project 2,1/2 years ago.
I am a slow learner but I do learn. And you are right I do have the right to clean my rifle as I see fit and guess what you also have the right to clean up your rifles as you wish. We both are doing what we know is right in our own minds. Why don't we just leave it like this?
:thumbsup:
Flintfan69
40 Cal.
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paulvallandigham said:
Again, you have completely missed the point of the research and experiments done by Griz.
Yes, your method of cleaning a rifle works great. I don't think anyone questioned that. Griz (and myself) has spent many hours and years finding a system that works best for cleaning his gun, and posted what that process is. We shouldn't have our heads bitten off or be talked down to, because Lord forbid, our process differs from yours. :bow:
Oh and far as hot water causing rust. Please don't tell that to my gun safe full of clean, un-rusted, flintlock rifles that I can clean in 5 minutes each, that they are supposed to be rusting. After being cleaned with only hot water for 25 years, they just might have a change of heart and rust away to nothing next time I try that.
Well, I guess if you want to smell like solvent, and have garbage cans full of dirty patches...what was is it you said about peeing on an electric fence??? :grin: More power too you. Have a nice Friday, and enjoy the weekend everyone.
Here's what I'd like to see...
Person "A" presents something that works for them.
Person "B" presents something that works for them.
Person "C" gets to decide which will work best for them.
Persons "A" and "B" don't fight over which method is best, becuase obviously each of their methods works for them.
This way, we don't have unresolvable arguments, the Moderators don't have to step in and everybody wins.
Obviously if there's a safety issue involved that's different.
Person "A" presents something that works for them.
Person "B" presents something that works for them.
Person "C" gets to decide which will work best for them.
Persons "A" and "B" don't fight over which method is best, becuase obviously each of their methods works for them.
This way, we don't have unresolvable arguments, the Moderators don't have to step in and everybody wins.
Obviously if there's a safety issue involved that's different.
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