Need help purchasing first Flintlock

[Finnwolf]

Well I agree that is a long but interesting reply. However, my experience with TC has been 180 degrees from yours. They have done exactly what I wanted if I had a problem. I now have 15 TC’s. They don’t care even if I am not the original owner, which I am not on 14 of them. The one I use mostly, the new one, has gone over 90 shots on a single flint. ... Also are you trying to tell me custom guns never have problems? I would find that hard to swallow. As for accuracy, it shoots better than I can. I am still new and have been working on what makes them go bang more than I have on accuracy. But that will change soon as I now have very high confidence they will work every time I want them to.

All I can do is to brew the coffee I've experienced with T/C for a long, long time. If you refuse to smell that coffee, fine. I guess many people feel if they haven't experienced it, then it can't be true.
The goal here was to answer brdhnter's question about what gun to start with. Based on my 35 years and what T/C has evolved into, I would NOT buy a new gun from them. They cost too much and the quality and commitment to traditional flinters is no longer there. A used T/C, maybe, if I found one with no problems but not a new one. I'd buy a GPR kit and finish it the way I want to and see if I like the sport before I'd spend a lot of money. If I can buy a GPR kit for $350 that looks more like a real Hawken than any T/C ever did, brown the barrel like the originals why would I want to pay twice as much for a finished T/C?
As for custom guns, I have one for about 2 months and with only 2 short range sessions, it already outshoots any gun I've owned with T/C stamped on it and it has gone off very fast every single time I've pulled the trigger.
'Nuff said.

 

[Finnwolf]

I am still new and have been working on what makes them go bang more than I have on accuracy. But that will change soon as I now have very high confidence they will work every time I want them to.

Let me save you some time, bigtime.

What "makes them go bang" has everyting to do with a quality lock, like a Siler, a touch hole located in the proper place, use of real black powder and attention to all the details like loading the right way to begin with every time, keeping your powder and prime dry and going to the range more than just once in awhile.

I've worked hard on all the details but I've received many guns from T/C with substandard flint locks and poor touch hole alignment. Up until right now, their customer service has been great but their ability to produce a high quality flinter is no longer there. They make flinters that have poor lock geometry and bash good flints to the point where they ship you the lock with a sawn agate in it's jaws. Their fit to finish is now poor, they seem to locate their vents poorly, their barrels are often off spec from what they advertise. They do ship as fast as anyone I've ever seen but you DON'T want what they ship you. I used to be one of T/C most loyal customers.

That's been my experience as short and sweet as I can make it.

Merry Christmas, hope theirs a GPR under your tree.
Finnwolf

 

[ebiggs1]

I can understand your soured experience you must have had and I believe every word. Why wouldn’t I? My experience with Thompson Center has been different. As gentlemen we will have to agree to disagree on this topic. But form what you have written I suspect you are more of a “traditional” guy that I. I suppose if I were as you I may not want a Thompson Center arm either. I doubt you shoot any more than I do as I can go out into the back yard whenever I want and the wife will tolerate the “smelly gun”! My favorite TC Hawken has just shot its 600th ball without a misfire, 90 on one flint! I have had it for about six months now.
I do hope you have very much found the love of your life rifle and enjoy it always. I am happy for you but you and the other guys need to know there are ones of us that love our TC’s just as much.
To everyone a very Merry Christmas and New Year.
EB


PS If there were a GPR flintlock under the tree, I wouldn’t shun it!

 

[hanshi]

I had a T/C Hawken about 30 years ago but for the life of me I can't remember much about it; I guess too many firearms have passed through my hands for me remember many details. I do remember it was nice looking and I was impressed with the fit & finish. But as I said that was some 30 years ago. I now have 4 "custom" flint rifles and I would bet American money that none would pass muster with a pc/hc fanatic (okay, then, connoiseur). But they are what I wanted.

 

[tg]

"TC Firestorm, "

OK that rings a bell, most likely that will bring a negative tone to the thread,hopefully in the future it can be handled more delicately as it and other things will cme to pass.

 

[ebiggs1]

I wonder if Claude has ever considered making two boards here? One for “Traditional Flintlock” where the topic would strictly be limited to HC/PC guns. The other a “General Flintlock” board where everyone else that shoots flintlock would come. It seems the two will never get along and play nicely in the same sand box!

 

[tg]

There was a modern ML forum and it did not work well I think folks from else where went there and caused problems or vise versa I do not recall, it was not anything I was into so I did not post there.I don't know off hand of any non-traditional flintlocks or caplocks aside from the Firestorm, unless you get into the &^-line guns, I could see definitions being an isue here as well with some production guns, I think most are traditional,without being of a particular school or copied from an original,others may differ.

 

[Finnwolf]

from what you have written I suspect you are more of a “traditional” guy that I. I do hope you have very much found the love of your life rifle and enjoy it always. I am happy for you but you and the other guys need to know there are ones of us that love our TC’s just as much.

Please understand that I am grateful to T/C - I would never have gotten into this hobby if I had to come up with the cash to buy a custom gun many years ago. A used T/C was the best gun for the money back then. It was all I could do to come up with $150 back then for a used hawken. I am a product of PA - we only had 1 BP season for many years - flintlock design prior to 1850, shooting a PRB. That's how I got to be so "traditional". I am grateful to this forum. Before I became a member, I thought that the quality I had been receiving from T/C was typical. When I read that others got reliable ignition, good accuracy and nicer aesthetics than me from their T/C guns, I became dissatisfied. But my T/Cs were older and the more I sent them to T/C, the worse they became.
I am among the saddest to see T/C fall prey to other types of ignition, to poor quality and lack of commitment to the traditional flintlock customer. They used to be all I'd ever own but now they are another American manufacturing company pricing themselves out of the market, biting the dust.

 

[hanshi]

I don't look down on factory MLs as I have 5 great ones and they have seen enormous use. I mostly use my custom flints, now, and probably won't ever buy another complete factory gun (barring a spectacular deal). I currently have two (CVA, I "think") stocks, one barrel & some furniture that will one day become two nice "working" rifles. I do plan on a couple more "customs" and the ones I already own would pass all but the most pedantic of aficionados.

I don't think another category is necessary at all. Any flint/cap/match sidelock of wood & steel that loads from the muzzle and uses black powder (or that other stuff) is traditional by my definition. I welcome any who discuss them.

 

[ebiggs1]

I wasn't thinking of a modern flintlock forum. Just another forum where it is understood that only HC/PC is allowed. The other, regular, flintlock forum would be for the rest of us. Than the folks that want to be as correct as possible would have to put up with folks that just enjoy the sport of flintlock shooting for what it is.

 

[ebiggs1]

Unfortunately folks like Finnwolf are not uncommon. Just look at the car companies. A guy gets a lemon from Ford or Chevy and that’s it. They swear off that vehicle. It does not make them bad companies. Who can really blame someone that gets a trash product, I can’t. Personally I prefer Fords and I like Thompson Center both have been good for me. It does not make Chevy’s horrific, however.

I really don’t believe there are enough flintlock shooters to keep the black powder muzzleloader sport alive and well. If it were not for the cap shooters and, yes, the in-lines, we may not be long for this endeavor.
I am still a little fuzzy on what exactly is a “custom” rifle is in the first place. From descriptions I have read here, and else where, they can be just about anything, kit or scratch. The best and shortest definition I can come up with is, any gun assembled with parts not sold by Thompson Center.

 

[Finnwolf]

Unfortunately folks like Finnwolf are not uncommon. Just look at the car companies. A guy gets a lemon from Ford or Chevy and that’s it. They swear off that vehicle. It does not make them bad companies. Who can really blame someone that gets a trash product, I can’t. Personally I prefer Fords and I like Thompson Center both have been good for me. It does not make Chevy’s horrific, however.

The best and shortest definition I can come up with is, any gun assembled with parts not sold by Thompson Center.

Wish I could say it in words that get through to you biggs. T/C has sent me poor quality 7 times now, not once. They advertise deep .010 grooves for better accuaracy in their prb barrels but ship me .005 grooves. I have remingtons and sakos much longer than my T/Cs and the wood has not cracked but the wood in the T/Cs has. I am used to products that work correctly when I do my share.
Interesting you should bring up cars. I owned 8 consecutive GM products since I've learned to drive and my wife has owned Dodges and Fords. The Dodge she owned was a Dart which had leftover parts from 5-6 years previous in it so I had to bring defective parts to the auto store so they could match them up when I needed new parts. The brand new Ford she bought leaked every fluid it used on my new concrete driveway and the front axle failed at 10,000 miles. Ford would do nothing about it - turns out the axle is not part of the drive train according to Ford. I always though it was. The motor on the last brand new Chevy pickup I bought on 2004 failed with 35,000 miles on it because GM sourced their valve springs from Bolivia and would only pay to replace the 2 that broke. You believe that the other 14 are not gonna break? We only buy Japanese cars now, we both have Toyotas.
Don't Toyotas have problems? What's the bottom line? Toyota takes care of their customers when they have problems and some American companies do not. That's the difference.

Now what's a traditional flintlock? Simple, a design prior to 1850, shoots black powder, not a substitute, shoots a PRB, not a conical or saboted pistol bullet. Fixed sights, not adjustable. No stainless steel, no plastic, no coil springs, no fiber optic sights, no aluminum or fiberglas ramrod. Nothing that did not exist in 1850.
Simple explantions like this one have no impact on devotees of T/C, Chevy or Ford like you. I learned that a long time ago. I wouldn't bother but I can't let you paint me as a customer who got 1 bad product from these guys. I'm a customer that demands quality in the products I buy. I used to buy American products but I can't think of any I'll buy anymore.

 

[Zonie]

IMO, the idea of another forum area which only allows discussions of PC/HC guns would be a real PITA.

I suspect that more space would be given to arguments about the Period Correctness or Historical Correctness than would be spent actually talking about shooting, collecting and enjoying the guns.

It would also add another task to the moderators job. After all, most folks would expect us to determine if the gun actually belongs in that forum and if it doesn't, to move the topic to the place where it should be.

I suggest that rather than creating another forum we should all strive to be a bit more tolerant of others.

Have a Happy New Year.

 

[hanshi]

:hmm: Who and how is pc/hc determined? I already see that few agree on parameters as it stands. :surrender:

 

[ebiggs1]

Thanks for the response. I must bow to your greater experience in running a forum. But I don’t see the bantering back and forth in the other forums, just the flintlock one. Possibly I am touchier because of my beginning experience here and I promise to mellow out in the New Year. I am not and don’t want to be the flag carrier for Thompson Center but in the 35 years I have done business with them, they have been good. I hope so since I now have 15 TCs.
EB

 

[tg]

" Who and how is pc/hc determined?"

Well it mainly depends on what type of gun a person has... or doesn't have, but thinks he has, but is upset about any comments about what he really has that do not follow the thoughts about the guns authenticity he thinks it has, all in all Zonie is right, there would be more post argueing about what is or isn't than anything else, as most folks particular newcommers assume the production gun they buy are "replicas", most are not, but are traditional in style, they would pass as part of a traditional ML outfit but may not pass at an event from a specific time period.

 

[MSW]

gotta come down on the side of Zonie on this issue ... one worries about the efficiency of effort spent on the part of the moderators as relates the the benefit ... pretty thin, i think.

just one guy's opinion.

 

[cratwelder]

I have been reading this thread, and now that the kids are out of the house; the real boss is letting me pursue my passions again (my kids were money pits!!!!!). After reading, and asking a few questions I also am buying my first flinter (in 20 years). I have decided on a TVM early virginia in 58 caliber.

 

[hanshi]

Exactly what I figure would happen. Most groups (at least the ones I've had contact with) simply aren't that picky. If a group's standards are very precise, find out ahead of time. They're a special case. Otherwise, share your sidelock, develop a thicker skin and realize just because (of necessity) the wording of a post is somewhat brusque, it doesn't mean mean you're being dissed.

 

[goon]

I say this with the caveat that I've only shot about fifty shots total out of any muzzleloader. The only one I owned was a .50 caliber Lyman Deerstalker.
Although it didn't cost a huge amount, the only time that gun didn't fire instantaneously was when my idiot brother primed it with about three ounces of FFFFg in the pan. Obviously, it was one of those "whoosh... BANG!" ignitions. But other than that, as long as the flint was somewhat sharp that thing shot as fast as a cartridge rifle (at least I couldn't tell the difference). It had the annoying habit of the one ramrod pipe shooting loose but I could have fixed that with loctite (which I now always keep around anyhow). Accuracy was also pretty good out to 50 yards - but keep in mind that I'm by no means an experienced shooter.
Why did I sell it? Because I was stupid and also because it didn't have the historical feel I wanted in a flintlock. It WAS a very functional gun though and I'd buy another Lyman in a second. IIRC, I've seen them for around $375 online and they'd probably be a bit less than that at a gun store. You might even score one used.