New BP Rifle Shooter ???

[dg98adams]

I bough my son and I BP used rifles for Christmas. (prices I was able to live with but we didn't break the bank either).

Here's the skinny so far:

Our experience with BP was his BP Pistol last summer (Pietta New Army .44 1858).

I'm an NRA Pistol/Rifle instructor (just not Muzzle loader yet) and Asst. Scout Master.

Had to work to get the T/C Renegade .50 barrel cleaned up (minor pitting left, but I think usable). The Investarms .50 Hawken for him was clean as a whistle, but have not shot it yet.

So far, after shooting the T/C, I have dealt with a ball that did not fire (tried several caps), it did have powder so it's Pyodex/nipple related ignition. Pulled the ball with the range rod I bought and some tricks I found here (roped tied to range rod). Now have a C02 kit for the range.

We have not had a chance to run by the experienced guys at our local private BP range to check out loading procedure, so my questions relate to consistent loading and safety.

??? I have heard mention thumping the side of the rifle barrel to settle the BP?????

When I have a shot that does not fire, and I try another cap or 2 (or 3), is it safe to pick nipple between caps while loaded? I have had probably 20% of the shots need a 2nd (or 3rd cap).

And dang is that trigger sensitive after setting the rear trigger.

This is the loading procedure I follow (assuming I start with a freshly wiped barrel, and a clear nipple (picked with wire), with 2 caps fired to clear the barrel.

All done with the Rifle barrel setting on the ground, leaning away. Measure out the load into a measure, and pour into the muzzle with the measure.

???? trigger set on half-**** ????
???? thump rifle to settle powder???

Set lubed patch and ball on muzzle (try to keep it centered).

???? Seen guys using patch knife and unlubed cloth???

Using a ball starter (short end) to push the patch/ball just into the muzzle.

Flip the ball starter (long end) to push the patch/ball ~6" down into barrel.

Insert range rod, grabbing range rod ~6-8 inches above the muzzle start pushing the ball till it's seated using short strokes. I keep pushing till it stops, and 1 more light push to make sure it's stopped (compare pencil mark on range rod for grains used).

Cradle rifle pointing downrange, load cap (I have a capper tool), set rear trigger, and shoot.

Clear nipple, reload. I swab barrel with cleaning patch followed up with dry patch(s) every 2-3 shots.

???? should it just be the dry patch ??
???? 2-3 shots too much or not enough ???

Were using Pyrodex RS (not same as pistol Pyrodex P), and #11 magnum caps. Need to pick up some real BP.

We are shooting .490 RB with Wonderlube .10(?) patches. I am pretty sure we are not burning thru the patch but my son never picked up any, and we worked from a 50 grain to an 80 grain load at 100 yards.

Shots seemed to be better at 80 grains. :shocked2:

 

[Rogue River]

Put your hammer on half **** then dump the powder in the barrel. Hold rifle with hammer side down and tap opposite side of barrel. That gets some powder under the nipple. Now patch and ball. Make sure fire channel under nipple is cleaned w/each barrel cleaning. The little screw between the triggers back it off (counter clockwise) a turn or 2. That screw adjusts the trigger tension! I wipe between shots w/alcohol just damp patch. Don't wipe all the way to the breech, it just shoves fouling into your powder chamber. 3 inches from bottom of barrel. :surrender:

 

[Stumpkiller]

Note that there are many ways to arrive at the same end and we all get routines and preferred methods.

??? I have heard mention thumping the side of the rifle barrel to settle the BP?????

Unnecessary, but it doesn't hurt anything. Some feel it gets powder into the flash channel for reliable ignition (and some feel that creates a fuse and slows down the flash to ignition).

When I have a shot that does not fire, and I try another cap or 2 (or 3), is it safe to pick nipple between caps while loaded? I have had probably 20% of the shots need a 2nd (or 3rd cap).

Yes. But lose the Pyrodex and get blackpowder so it is unnecessary.

And dang is that trigger sensitive after setting the rear trigger.

Should be a bit of adjustment (look for a small set screw on the trigger plate). I prefer a regular single trigger for hunting for that reason.

This is the loading procedure I follow (assuming I start with a freshly wiped barrel, and a clear nipple (picked with wire), with 2 caps fired to clear the barrel.

All done with the Rifle barrel setting on the ground, leaning away. Measure out the load into a measure, and pour into the muzzle with the measure.

???? trigger set on half-**** ????
???? thump rifle to settle powder???

Hammer set to half-****, trigger unset.

Set lubed patch and ball on muzzle (try to keep it centered).

???? Seen guys using patch knife and unlubed cloth???

Should use some type of lube: spit, liquid or grease/wax lubes. If you cut at the muzzle it's always centered. I carry lubed strips six feet long in a waxed pouch and cut as needed. Another method is to put pre-patched and lubed balls in a ball block. Very fast for hunting or range work.

Using a ball starter (short end) to push the patch/ball just into the muzzle.

Flip the ball starter (long end) to push the patch/ball ~6" down into barrel.

Insert range rod, grabbing range rod ~6-8 inches above the muzzle start pushing the ball till it's seated using short strokes. I keep pushing till it stops, and 1 more light push to make sure it's stopped (compare pencil mark on range rod for grains used).

I make do with out a short starter or range rod - just choke up on the rod the gun carries.

Cradle rifle pointing downrange, load cap (I have a capper tool), set rear trigger, and shoot.

Clear nipple, reload. I swab barrel with cleaning patch followed up with dry patch(s) every 2-3 shots.

???? should it just be the dry patch ??
???? 2-3 shots too much or not enough ???

You will stick a jag with a dry patch after firing. Do not do it.

Were using Pyrodex RS (not same as pistol Pyrodex P), and #11 magnum caps. Need to pick up some real BP.

I highly recommend so.

We are shooting .490 RB with Wonderlube .010" patches. I am pretty sure we are not burning thru the patch but my son never picked up any, and we worked from a 50 grain to an 80 grain load at 100 yards.

Shots seemed to be better at 80 grains. :shocked2:

Lots of variables. The rifle will tell you what it likes. Change one component at a time and see what works best. I'm lazy and I like a lube that lets me shoot 5 to 10 times between having to spit wipe - once and no dry wipe after the spit damp patch. But I load standing up from the bag (no table or shooting box) so I "travel light" when shooting. Same methods and gear as I hunt with.

Enjoy!

 

[Rifleman1776]

Sounds like you have your procedure down pretty well. I thump with patent breeches like you have and believe it helps. Do change your nipple. Get a 'hot shot' style, that might help. Next time you clean, pull the nipple and examine to see if maybe your flash channel is blocked. For swabbing between shots, do use only a damp patch, not drippin' wet.
And, yes, switch to real black powder and ditch the magnum caps. Good luck, let us know how it works out.

 

[Bill Hall]

Stumpkiller covered just about everything, but I'll add some more on the pyrodex. Some sidelocks do fine using pyrodex, others, not so much. If you're having random misfires, and you know you have a clean, dry, unobstructed flash channel, then the pyro is probably the culprit. If you switch to black powder and the problem is still present, then the problem lies somewhere else. But dollars to doughnuts the black powder will solve your misfire problems.

Also, I've shot about a gozillion shots from muzzleloaders, and I can't remember even once thumping the side of the gun while loading. I think it's just one of those "must-do" rituals alot of guys have. Something that started out as a myth, and has turned into gospel. Bill

 

[Otter]

I have had probably 20% of the shots need a 2nd (or 3rd cap).

Most of the responses have addressed your procedure well. BUT, check your nipple for "mushrooming", that is a common cause of the need for multiple caps completely or just multiple hammer strikes. That (mushrooming) can be remedied by some judicious filing or just replacing the nipple. If the cap is igniting, but the powder charge is not, the flash channel is either obstructed to some degree or damp from swabbing or residual oil/lube. After a successful shot (i.e., the load discharges) try using your CO2 discharger to clear the flash channel prior to loading your next round and see what happens. Switch to BP and make it easier on yourself :v . Good luck.

 

[ebiggs1]

You already stated,

“Had to work to get the T/C Renegade .50 barrel cleaned up ...”.

So replace the nipple. I always replace the nipple on a used gun I bought. Make it simple, first make sure you cleaned ALL the crud out of the breech. You need a bore light and pipe cleaners.
I have shot TC 's a lot and can tell you they work and virtually every time. The Pyrodex is not the problem provided it is not contaminated or very old. You do not need to thump, tap, swipe, swab check the moon phase or your horoscope to make it fire!

Use 60-80 grs Pyrodex, 018 pillow ticking patch Bore Butter around a Hornady round ball and CCI caps (or Remington). All will probably be available at your local Bass Pro, Cabela's or gun shop.
Go and shoot your rifle!

 

[Rat Trapper]

I have had very good results with TC Hawken rifles using all the powders made. Depending on the rifle, I like either Goex black powder or Triple Seven. I would recommend going with a hot shot nipple. I would recommend cleaning the patten breech and flash channel just to make sure all the crude that might be there from previous shooting is removed.

 

[ldykeman]

All are great tips. From my experience using Pyrodex years ago, the most important were:
- Barrel and channel must be clear.. Cleaning a barrel by simply swabbing isn't enough. You need to flush it with soapy water, dry, and oil.
- store muzzleloaders muzzle down so oil does not collect in breech area..
- Before shooting, swab bore with dry patch and snap some caps, and don't be stingy. I do 5 myself.
- Use a Hot Shot nipple (already mentioned). Pyrodex ignites around 600 degrees F, and black powder around 350. So a hot cap and Hot Shot nipples are recommended.
- When seating ball, make sure you put some pressure on the ramrod. According to the "Hodgdon Pyrodex/Black Poweder Shooters Handbook", "Proper ignition of Pyrodex requires that the bullet or ball be seated firmly against the powder charge, preferably with about 80 pounds pressure."
I my experience, this gave me the most reliable performance with Pyrodex...BUT.... I never really eliminated hangfires until I switched over to real black powder...then all problems solved. Even went back to a standard nipple.
btw, the guys who invented Pyrodex were Dan Pawlak and Mike Levenson. Dan and three of his coworkers died on Jan. 27, 1977 when the Pyrodex plant was destroyed by a deflagration.
Larry

 

[tv_racin_fan]

Seems like the issue may well come from the previous owner. (I did understand these to be used firearms)

Tis possible if the previous owner used some petroleum products that you got some nasty fouling in there that wont come out with black powder solvents or soap and water (or so I understand). IF that be the case you need something other than say Hoppes #9 to get it out and to be flat honest I dunno what to recommend, maybe someone here will understand what I mean and can suggest something.

As someone pointed out some sidelocks just do not seem to run with those subs. The subs require more energy to light off. I have only ever had one issue with a shot hang firing or not firing at all and that was a USER issue and not a powder issue so I really can't say much about it. My son learned a valuable lesson that day as it was HE who made the mistake.

When you pop those caps aim the muzzle at a blade of grass or something that you can see move from the energy the cap puts out. Listen to the sound as well, one can tell from the sound that the channel is clear or it seems so anyway. It may take more than two if the channel was dirty or wet with lube.

At home when I load up getting set to go hunting after I pop some caps I'll pull the nipple and run a pipecleaner thru to make sure it is dead clean and dry and poke the nipple as well. I'll then give the nipple a light coat of some grease ONLY on the threads and that right careful. Reinstall the nipple and I aint had issue even once leaving it loaded until the next pre season range trip.

All in I still agree with getting TRUE black powder. And I suggest getting a can each of FFg and FFFg. You rifle may prefer one over the other.

 

[Pacobillie]

I had similar issues when I started out. Here is what I learned:

Tap the side of the gun opposite the hammer to get the powder into the bolster, under the nipple, before you seat the ball.

When you clean, use a damp, not a wet patch. Make sure you get all the moisture out with a dry patch. No need to clean more than every 10 shots or so with Pyrodex P.

I find Pyrodex P is more reliable and burns cleaner than RS.

Change your nipple to one that uses musket caps. Hotter than #11 Magnum.

When you clean the gun back home, make sure that you take the nipple out and thoroughly clean the bolster and dry it out with a pipe cleaner and compressed air.

 

[paulvallandigham]

WADR, There is no problem with the amount of fire you get from a standard #11 percussion cap. Take that gun out into your back yard some night, With the lights out, wait ten minutes for your pupils to open up. TheN, with an UNLOADED gun, put a standard #11 cap on the nipple and fire the gun, while you watch the muzzle. It may help to have a buddy fire the gun while you stand at 90 degrees to it, and watch the fire come out of the muzzle against a dark background.

IMH Experience, repeated many times, with standard #11, #10, Magnum #11, and MuSket caps, as well as watching other club members fire off these same kind of caps at night in the dark, that you get between 6 and 10 inches of flame coming out the muzzle, regardless of barrel length.

Just how much more fire is required than that?

The ignition problems shooters have with percussion guns come from:

1. Poorly made nipples;
2. Poorly designed nipples;
3. Worn out nipples;
4. Hammers that don' strike the nipple squarely, and eventually wear one side of the nipple down to the point you get misfires;
5. Substitute powders with higher ignition temperatures, where MAGNUM percussion caps are specifically recommended by the powder manufacturer, but this advise is ignored;
6. Substitute powder made specifically for cartridge revolvers USED in the CAS games, being used in traditional MLing guns;
7. Substitute powder made specifically for use in those in-l**e gun we don't discuss on this site, but which some shooters insist on trying to use in Traditional percussion sidelock rifles.

Pyrodex works in all traditional percussion guns, but because of the breech design of some guns, shooters often find that using Pyrodex P, rather than Pyrodex RS works better in their rifles. "P" has a smaller granule size and flows easier from the powder chambers into and thru the flash channel over to the base of the nipple.

I don't have anything against musket caps. For people who shoot replica military rifles made with musket nipples, they should use musket caps.

BUT,I can't see any measurable difference in the amount of flame produced by Musket caps compared to Magnum #11 caps. In fact, my club members spent a significant amount of time observing the two kinds of caps, when the magnum caps first came out.

I was personally interested in the test because I owned a 12 gauge percussion shotgun, and want to know if the new "Magnum" caps would give me more, or a hotter flame in that shotgun. And, since one of our members had his musket available with musket nipple, and musket caps, we did the testing in the dark away from camp and our camp fires.

I don't recall what brand of caps were used. I suspect CCI for the magnum caps, and RWS for the musket caps, simply because those were the most common brands then available. But, I am recalling a test done more than 25 years ago. :idunno: :surrender: :hmm: :grin: I may be wrong. :hatsoff: At my age, I have accepted that " Senior moments" happen.

If the flash channel( some here call it a "flame channel") is clear, smooth, round, and of sufficient size to permit FFg powder to flow freely from the barrel to the base of your nipple, you should have no need to purchase anything other that standard #11 caps for your gun. But, PLEASE, use REAL Black powder.

AND, PLEASE don't try to tell us how difficult it is to buy when we routinely find friends and place an order with one of the large distributors and have it delivered to our front door for about #15 per pound. That is less than half the retail price some bit box stores are charging you for the substitutes. :hmm:

 

[Pacobillie]

WADR, There is no problem with the amount of fire you get from a standard #11 percussion cap. Take that gun out into your back yard some night, With the lights out, wait ten minutes for your pupils to open up. TheN, with an UNLOADED gun, put a standard #11 cap on the nipple and fire the gun, while you watch the muzzle. It may help to have a buddy fire the gun while you stand at 90 degrees to it, and watch the fire come out of the muzzle against a dark background.

IMH Experience, repeated many times, with standard #11, #10, Magnum #11, and MuSket caps, as well as watching other club members fire off these same kind of caps at night in the dark, that you get between 6 and 10 inches of flame coming out the muzzle, regardless of barrel length.

Just how much more fire is required than that?

The ignition problems shooters have with percussion guns come from:

1. Poorly made nipples;
2. Poorly designed nipples;
3. Worn out nipples;
4. Hammers that don' strike the nipple squarely, and eventually wear one side of the nipple down to the point you get misfires;
5. Substitute powders with higher ignition temperatures, where MAGNUM percussion caps are specifically recommended by the powder manufacturer, but this advise is ignored;
6. Substitute powder made specifically for cartridge revolvers USED in the CAS games, being used in traditional MLing guns;
7. Substitute powder made specifically for use in those in-l**e gun we don't discuss on this site, but which some shooters insist on trying to use in Traditional percussion sidelock rifles.

Pyrodex works in all traditional percussion guns, but because of the breech design of some guns, shooters often find that using Pyrodex P, rather than Pyrodex RS works better in their rifles. "P" has a smaller granule size and flows easier from the powder chambers into and thru the flash channel over to the base of the nipple.

I don't have anything against musket caps. For people who shoot replica military rifles made with musket nipples, they should use musket caps.

BUT,I can't see any measurable difference in the amount of flame produced by Musket caps compared to Magnum #11 caps. In fact, my club members spent a significant amount of time observing the two kinds of caps, when the magnum caps first came out.

I was personally interested in the test because I owned a 12 gauge percussion shotgun, and want to know if the new "Magnum" caps would give me more, or a hotter flame in that shotgun. And, since one of our members had his musket available with musket nipple, and musket caps, we did the testing in the dark away from camp and our camp fires.

I don't recall what brand of caps were used. I suspect CCI for the magnum caps, and RWS for the musket caps, simply because those were the most common brands then available. But, I am recalling a test done more than 25 years ago. :idunno: :surrender: :hmm: :grin: I may be wrong. :hatsoff: At my age, I have accepted that " Senior moments" happen.

If the flash channel( some here call it a "flame channel") is clear, smooth, round, and of sufficient size to permit FFg powder to flow freely from the barrel to the base of your nipple, you should have no need to purchase anything other that standard #11 caps for your gun. But, PLEASE, use REAL Black powder.

AND, PLEASE don't try to tell us how difficult it is to buy when we routinely find friends and place an order with one of the large distributors and have it delivered to our front door for about #15 per pound. That is less than half the retail price some bit box stores are charging you for the substitutes. :hmm:

Paul:


With all due respect, I am not sure what I did to deserve such a seemingly condescending reply on your part. If you do not agree, read it again.

BTW, I live in Canada. Our laws are different up here. BP is indeed hard to come by, and you cannot legally get it mailed to you in this country. That is why I do not use it. I would, if I could.

 

[dg98adams]

All good stuff, but I think it's nipple related.

The Pyrodex was new. And I believe it's the same caps we use on my son's .44. We had some shots there than did not fire as well.

Maybe I was cleaning (wet patch followed by dry patch)too much between shots, and not clearing the nipples often enough.

The barrel has been really cleaned multiple times (Soapy water, bore cleaner, Foaming cleaning, Hoppes #9) before I took it to the range. It was pretty bad. I have had 2 different bore lights down it.

I had replaced the nipple with a T/C Hotshot and I think the threads on the snail (?)were not in great shape. So I might not have locked it down all the way (I know I stopped before cross threading). This would create a gap in the "flame channel" and may affect the ignition too.

I also need to look at the angle the hammer is hitting the cap. It may be off a bit (bent sideways?).

My local Muzzle Loading club (Dayton Muzzle Loaders) in New Carlisle Ohio (Boitnott range) has real BP cheaper than Pyrodex, but haven't hit the 1st Sunday to join....and buy some powder for the Pistol and the Rifles.

I might have Mr. Boitnott look at the nipple threads (I have 2-3 new 1/4-28 nipples from TOTW). Might need a bottom tap the chase the threads.

Thanks for all the tips. This is a great site.

DG :hatsoff:

 

[chainshot09]

Paul's responses are always like that. They are also very informative, so you just have to learn to live with his "tone". Sorry you live in Canada.

 

[Pacobillie]

Paul's responses are always like that. They are also very informative, so you just have to learn to live with his "tone". Sorry you live in Canada.

Thanks for your concern, but it is not a bad country lo live in, aside from the restrictive gun laws, and the reduced availability of real BP.

 

[gearheart]

Hey I'm also in Canada :thumbsup: and I get the Goex in my local gun store for $20 a lb. Have to ask for it as it is not on the shelf.

 

[Pacobillie]

Hey I'm also in Canada :thumbsup: and I get the Goex in my local gun store for $20 a lb. Have to ask for it as it is not on the shelf.

I am west of Montreal, not far from the Ontario border. No shop in Montreal stocks it, and neither does Higginson powders. Londero in St-Jean sur Richelieu stocks it. It is a one hour and fifteen minutes drive from my house to go there.

I can get Pyrodex P from Higginson. So it is much more convenient.