Ottoman Guns

[senseisugarbear]

A whole nother World in this thread, I can't beleive the man hrs. involved....TRULY IMPRESSIVE......Wally

 

[Rudyard]

A whole nother World in this thread, I can't beleive the man hrs. involved....TRULY IMPRESSIVE......Wally

Dear Wally. Yes they are a bit different I find them a nice change from the norm we are so used to & the videos really grabbed my attention . Regards Rudyard

 

[PathfinderNC]

Fascinating thread !

 

[hawkeye2]

I watched the 2 videos linked and they were great! I have watched movies that weren't anywhere nearly as well done. I only wish the one detailing the weapons and accouterments was in English. While I was on utube I noticed what looked like a couple more of the same in the list on the right but didn't have them to pursue the links.

 

[jimhallam]

Yes very similar other than to lack of enlarged lower jaw of the cock with the appearance of being perhaps modified to cap lock later idea .& there is no rear sight along 1851 British Minies lines . Nor does yours have the simple built in alter to matchlock provision .But else wise very alike . It came from a gun shop in Chesterfield 18 pounds hardly cheap in the 60s But like an idiot I sold it just to buy a ropey Brown Bess for ten.
OK just recovered the photo & a scetch in my Game register that dates it 17 3 1962 price 18 pounds. I sold for 17 More relavant is the description ' 577 aprox bore flintlock rifle by Latheless maker 40" barrel 57& a 1/4 overall approx 14 pounds wieght . In the white Damascus brl 8 grouve rifling . Records 2&3/4 Drams C&H Number two
patched round ball of 576 ect( Such recording from an 16 year old !. I still keep up to this day incidently .
) The drawing & pic shows held by keys and set back for a B net Very odd all round but exists. Re the rosets looks like you & me could use them if we locate the supply I could send $ US to cover the cost & postage .I also have Walnut NZ grown English W' nut Iv'e no idea what postage might be but I used to round the edges off BC Maple and wrote the address & it reached UK just like that . Its a bit like posting a Coconut no need to wrap it up & a paper template with desired dims would much reduce the wieght I think it was Cyten needed some . Of course the anti gun stuffer upper'es will have kittens but stuff em . Though the curly maple or in Europe its called Sycomore has the nice curly grain and is a common tree .In fact I preffer it for these guns . I once got buetifull Sycomore that a tree trimer had given to a farm & they rived it for fence posts thinking the curl was from the chain saw .So I grabbed it and its made stock's over the years .Nor dose the local hardwood timber yard allways know . Tell you they don't have the sizes you want in the Office. but stroll in the yard & ask since they count planks for clear stuff but since the shapes we want are often within ' shakes 'so from the offices angle are under usefull size . But we can very often get our needs from what they reckoned ill suited sizes . Of course you might get some funny looks lugging a whopping plank on a Corporation bus but Ive done it .anyway . ( Whorst one when when got cow horns from the slaugther house . Bone still inside & put them in a bag & took the bus I mean like you would but despite the cold day the conducter opened the door as the passengers speculated on the sourse of the aroma (I cant smell ) & all the while Ime feeling rightly guilty of their discomfort. So as it was the day after Guy Fawkes day I spotted a still burning embers fire so got off found a big tin and boiled the horns up to knock out the inner bone .. A wee bit off Post but seemed an ammuseing recollection .
Regards Rudyard

So you bought something from Hall's ! Was it the old man --- a "character" would be generous -- or from John, his gunsmith son?

 

[rickystl]

Dear Rick & Cyten .The matchlock lever front part had a hole where I presume the Serpantine ' Jaws' might fit into as wanted since you would have to cock or remove the cock lest it got in the way its been 60 odd years since I last saw it so I may have got the fixing details for the separate serpentine 'Head ' which I never had might have been for the Fungus coal type. ? I was 16 not too bad a memory considering . I evidently shot it must see if I recorded the group. I did record the load. What strook me the most was its relief figured Damascus barrel & the c1850s rear sight . & I kicked myself for parting with it but I was just a lad. Dear Cyten OK re wood I looked up the sights WOW & we think WE do re enactments I watched the lot. if couldnt stop the over powering folk singing part . They certainly have style dedication & Skill . Viking also useful . I once made a snap matchlock 'After' Hans Morl for Mr Tromner as he wanted one took it to UK had it proofed but he wouldn't respond to my letters so I took it to the US on my way back & sold it in Ohio to' Smoke & Fire News' Editor . Small World.
Regards Rudyard

Hi Rudyard

OK. This is now making sense to me. It's possible the gun was originally made as a matchlock, with the additional flintlock added later. But more likely, the gun was made with dual ignition. It sounds like your gun was simply missing the serpentine portion that holds the match cord, and was attached to that small hole in the extension bar running back to the rear trigger. But, a picture says a thousand words. LOL Here is a photo of a musket in my collection. Although this musket is from the Coorg Region of Southwestern India, it clearly shows the matchlock/flintlock duel ignition feature. How the match cord reaches the pan of the flintlock is that the head of the serpentine pivots about 45-degrees to the right. Pretty clever. Notice the trigger for the flintlock being off-set to the right.

Rick

 

[Rudyard]

So you bought something from Hall's ! Was it the old man --- a "character" would be generous -- or from John, his gunsmith son?

Dear Jim .Yes The old man was deffinatly a' Charecter' We where just teens he sometimes was gruff like we where holding him back from going shooting,( Maybe we where He was allways dressed like he was )Or hed'e be nice as pie & very helpfull . His son was fine, I think the rifle was in the shop he had next door." The Bishop of Beetwell street "was our name for him . John had not long come back from travelling & had his Italion wife .Not sure much after as I too went travelling . Georgy Wood who was in Suggs , Old Turner on West bar & The one up South Street , Ropers with his glass case with the bullet hole in it ! where the only others I recall .Turners daughter married the son of the hairdressers next door A complete & utter snob little wonder he ran it into the ground & Him" Chairman of the Gun Trade Asscoiation ".And his qualifications where between his legs . He hated black powder was rude & condesending to customers And kept that long duck gun by Twigg full cocked wonder where it went too? . . Don't care where HE went too .But he decriede he was being "Under sold & ruined by back street RFDs " like me . I had no shop just dealt & made guns. but travelled a lot , The US becoming my principal market . Went to India a few times buying old guns I ended up dealing in Traction Engines bit of a change .Anyway long PM or should be one . Regards Rudyard .

 

[Rudyard]

Hi Rudyard

OK. This is now making sense to me. It's possible the gun was originally made as a matchlock, with the additional flintlock added later. But more likely, the gun was made with dual ignition. It sounds like your gun was simply missing the serpentine portion that holds the match cord, and was attached to that small hole in the extension bar running back to the rear trigger. But, a picture says a thousand words. LOL Here is a photo of a musket in my collection. Although this musket is from the Coorg Region of Southwestern India, it clearly shows the matchlock/flintlock duel ignition feature. How the match cord reaches the pan of the flintlock is that the head of the serpentine pivots about 45-degrees to the right. Pretty clever. Notice the trigger for the flintlock being off-set to the right.View attachment 147789View attachment 147793View attachment 147794View attachment 147797View attachment 147798

Rick

.Nice Goorge musket don't see them much .My rifle going by its 1850e type sight & the use of keys through loops usually a no no for such guns , its flush plate suggests more mid 19th and for whatever thinking made so .But the serpentine 'head' was detachable & lost when I had it . Then theirs that much built up lower jaw as if they where thinking to later go with percussion? .All very curious . Sounds like Jim Hallam knew the shop . I PMed him re the local gunshops he evidenty would have known .
Regards Rudyard

 

[GREENSWLDE]

Hello Rudyard, Was that long Twigg (only engraved on the Lock) duck gun the one with a Nocks form breach plug fitted by Isacc Walker from Norwich that is engraved 1805 and later converted to Caplock? If it was, it sits in my Gunroom. 42"x 10b. Weighs about 10lbs. Large trigger guard held on with two large headed screws with holes to tighten with a small tommy bar. Easily removed to fit a breaching rope to use it as a light skiff gun.Was well used on the marsh when I lived on the N. side of the Wash in late 70's thru' to 1990 Still haven't had you address to send old photos.. OLD DOG..

 

[rickystl]

.Nice Goorge musket don't see them much .My rifle going by its 1850e type sight & the use of keys through loops usually a no no for such guns , its flush plate suggests more mid 19th and for whatever thinking made so .But the serpentine 'head' was detachable & lost when I had it . Then theirs that much built up lower jaw as if they where thinking to later go with percussion? .All very curious . Sounds like Jim Hallam knew the shop . I PMed him re the local gunshops he evidenty would have known .
Regards Rudyard

Hi Rudyard

Yes, much agree. The use of barrel keys/wedges (versus pin fastening or barrel bands) and that long range sight make the gun even more of an oddity. The lock, from a distance in that photo with the flat plate does appear to be maybe early second quarter 19th Century. Possibly, the long range rear sight was added later, post 1860 (?) It's all certainly one of the more mysterious guns I've read about. Would be worthy of additional study today. The duel ignition feature shows that even with the introduction of the flintlock, that some of the locals in the East were not willing to completely give up their matchlocks. We do know that many of the locals on the Indian Continent continued to use their Torador matchlocks through at least the mid-19th Century. Progress in some areas of the World moved very slowly.

Rick

 

[Rudyard]

Hello Rudyard, Was that long Twigg (only engraved on the Lock) duck gun the one with a Nocks form breach plug fitted by Isacc Walker from Norwich that is engraved 1805 and later converted to Caplock? If it was, it sits in my Gunroom. 42"x 10b. Weighs about 10lbs. Large trigger guard held on with two large headed screws with holes to tighten with a small tommy bar. Easily removed to fit a breaching rope to use it as a light skiff gun.Was well used on the marsh when I lived on the N. side of the Wash in late 70's thru' to 1990 Still haven't had you address to send old photos.. OLD DOG..

Dear Old Dog. Yes its a Twigg but was flint so unlikley have been caplock given the shop owners understanding . I never got to see it close but it sat on a beam for Donkeys Years Re photos wonderered why not heard I thought you have me E Ile PM it to you.
Regards Rudyard

 

[Rudyard]

Hi Rudyard

Yes, much agree. The use of barrel keys/wedges (versus pin fastening or barrel bands) and that long range sight make the gun even more of an oddity. The lock, from a distance in that photo with the flat plate does appear to be maybe early second quarter 19th Century. Possibly, the long range rear sight was added later, post 1860 (?) It's all certainly one of the more mysterious guns I've read about. Would be worthy of additional study today. The duel ignition feature shows that even with the introduction of the flintlock, that some of the locals in the East were not willing to completely give up their matchlocks. We do know that many of the locals on the Indian Continent continued to use their Torador matchlocks through at least the mid-19th Century. Progress in some areas of the World moved very slowly.

Rick

Dear Rick at this distance in time I cant say it was an added or so meant sight but the style is very 1851 Minie type and the flush lock may draw from the Enfield or P51 ? plus the cocks lower jaw so clearly deliberate as if putting it to cap thinking some how with a replaced 'steel' (frizzen) as was done (I once tried to do it but it wasnt a success ) Not on this gun I add . Re staying with the Matchlock Scinner's horse an irregular cavalry of Sowars use M locks shooting from the saddle & presumably reloaded and considered them practical if later they & all such units go to percussion carbines . This is all 'Irregular" North West Frontier stuff . Which questions the usuel condemnation of the utility of match locks. .Shades of . Yes we all today know that matchlocks are impractical on horse .But They didnt know that so did it routinely .!

The coffee table books all agree matchlocks where ill suited to flying game birds but we shot clays at big English Country fairs even driven clays 'Over the belt" with a 12 bore one with common lock that I made on the style of one shewn in Lenk's book' Western Europe c1630' from memory . Iv'e hunted a week at a time useing a' got up' Snap M lock I made & the ferrol Goats seemed to succombe to its balls & I learned to use it to the best. Same story with my Wheellock harvesting Kangeroos.& rabbits in remote areas of the Australian bush just for tucker. No great feat of course just my notions tried out over the years .And just think of the money Iv'e saved on caps ? Regards Rudyard

 

[JBrandon]

Friends, this is a fascinating thread. A couple observations: First, in the historic photos - seems to be a common pattern that the well-armed man has a flintlock rifle, and in the sash, consistently a pair of pistols and a yataghan-type sabre. Which leads me to ask where the photos are from? Much more useful documentation if they have location and date, as best as known.
Likewise, I am in awe of the ability of some of you guys to restore old guns or create a fine firearm from bits and pieces. Please, add some documentation labels on the guns themselves, under the barrel on the stock, somewhere on the barrel, whatever. Years from now we'll all be gone, but with luck your work will live on and all these old guns would teach us more if the makers and owners had marked them.
I have bought a few, and every time I ask 'where did you get it? The answer is always 'Dunno.' Bought it from so and so, grandpa had it but that's all I know, found it in shop, etc etc. A Moroccan moukhala with an Italian barrel would be much more useful and interesting if we knew that Mr X bought it in Tafraout in 1912, so we could rule out something cobbled together in the suq in Fez in 2022! But such records are rarely kept, more's the pity. So we should do better.

 

[Rudyard]

Dear Mr Brandon .You make very valid points & seem to know your way around Morocco & Algeria .For my part I record & number any new gun though not if 'got up' of bits that stretch the elastic in " Restoration"department . But I only carve my name .date & the Monarke under the butt plate on normal guns . Normal for us that is .
The only breechloaders Iv'e made where a flintlock' Turn off 'one & a ' got up 'on a river bar a Le'chaumet ex spare 310 cadet percussion affair . Some times I have written in pen more about the gun in the barrel channel I made over 200 not counting numbers of ''in the white' or made with the buyers name a' factored' gun Like most knives & guns where historically . But more might be nice I agree I was given the stock of an old Ohio hog rifle no lock or barrel but under the B plate it had

'.'Traded 1 Hamilton rifle for 1 hair trigger rifle to Albert Wolfe on Sun Feb 1919 also powder horn & mould. Homer Magato. Then on the paper it had" I trusted my tires &" Speedmans motor sales Versialls; Oh "
'Mgr A Speelman"
I fitted a 40 cal brl & a new lock in keeping with other woodwork repair . Which is what you might hope to find ? But I think its rare to get that much information .I like to think it being right in Darke county Ohio, it might have been shot off against or even seen at least by Anne Mozeen / Moses ? of Willow Dell never quite sure but better known as Annie Oakley . who later lived in near by Greenville . What I did add under the lower flat of any ML might be humerous comment like" Build a better Matchlock & the World will beat a path to your door " Or "Genuine Montana battle company 5 dollar reject" one had "This style 10/ - and sixpence " ( from Alice in wonderlands mad hatter ) one Matchlock for a Union Rep Had " Matchlock shooters of the World ignite! " 'You have nothing to loose but your brains !" whether he ever saw it Iv'e no idea but seemed befitting I thought . Numbers of 'got up' Indian blunderbusses ect had' Nock.' 'Probin ', And 'Egg' on'the locks but under the cock they had' Don't,' 'Keep', & 'Duck'. appropriatlly
Regards Rudyard

PS normal guns had the number & date finnished some had an A prefix, meant 'about' locks & barrel had my signiture & nearest town & they where numerous locations & maybe ' Fecit 'if it was approrpriate R

 

[rickystl]

Hi JB

"Friends, this is a fascinating thread."

Yes, agree. Thanks to everyone participating in this Thread. It's not often I'm able to participate in a Thread involving muzzle loading guns in use during the Ottoman Empire. And the difference in style and usage as compared to their European/Western counterparts.

And a special thanks to Cyten for posting both period and contemporary photos/film with the Bulgarian re-enactors. Great stuff.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

Hi JB

"seems to be a common pattern that the well-armed man has a flintlock rifle, and in the sash, consistently a pair of pistols and a yataghan-type sabre"

Historic information seems to confirm that often, pistols were carried in pairs. Today, while there are many remaining pistols that were originally built as identical pairs, there were probably many more than exist today. Each of two pistols may be in two different collections, but don't know one another. LOL But in any case being separated by time. Whats interesting, unless built as a pair, I've never seen any two exactly alike.

Of course, while on horseback, the carry of two pistols was common everywhere. But while Europe/West preferred carrying their pistols in holsters/buckets mounted to the saddle, Easterners preferred the carry in a holster over the shoulder, similar to the photo below. Just another one of those differences.

Rick

 

[JBrandon]

Yes, if I were going to do reenacting, I'd go with one of the Albanian/Greek/Ottoman jennisary/N African costumes with pistols in a sash and great walloping slasher. What a swell outfit! Right period for us, but probably didn't get to join the fur trade or the Civil War.
Oh wait, anyone know the story of Haji Ali, or Hi Jolly, the Ottoman camel driver recruited before the CW for Lt Beale's camel explorations of the American SW? Hi Jolly Monument - Wikipedia
How far can imagination stretch a reenactment character and stay HC/PC?
Good story - I read a children's book of it long ago and live not far from part of Beale's trail in AZ.

 

[Rudyard]

Truth is often stranger than any fiction , Afghans where brought to Australia to bring out wool & resupply remote Cattle stations & wild camels run still arround back blocks Australia . So makes sense a few got to similar situations . Whether they where dolled up like the Bulgarians ? Well that might be a stretch .
An old friend in Washington State used to go to Re vous in Russian fur trader attire. The Russians did trade in his regions .But the' Gotta get a Hawken' fur heads wouldnt let him in primitive (Not enough beads & feathers you understand .)Elmer Johnston had & still has knowledge skill & Emigination. He was my esteemed Guru 'he didnt whittle about TC & such he would find a good photo of some rare Wheelock or Puckles machine gun & make one from scratch No' paint by numbers' kits for Elmer he was allways on my global migrations . His finnish wasnt quite as I would do & I engraved stuff for him some times But' cant do' wasn't in his vocablary . & a special museum of his muzzle loaders is in some Idaho town . Not seen them useually went through Idaho on Burlington Northern .
Rudyard

 

[Janissary]

The Ottomans primarily used matchlocks until the mid to late 1600s at which time they started transitioning to what is now called the Spanish style miquelet lock, with matchlocks often converted into miquelets. What distinguishes a miquelet from a true flintlock is that the sear projects horizontally thru the lockplate, and also that the lock is typically on the outside of the gun.

Compared to the true flintlock, the miquelet is easier to manufacture, and more reliable with a dull flint. However in the half-cock position the spring is still under some tension and can wear out over time. Additionally, the miquelet's more aggressive angle of flint striking the frizzen creates a more violent shake disrupting aim.

Judging by these pictures, true flintlocks made their appearance in Ottoman lands at some point by the 1800s, I don't know if that was a preference or just a phenomenon of importing guns from the West.

More photos have been collected here: Ottoman matchlock examples. - Ethnographic Arms & Armour

As far as I can tell, the Ottoman matchlocks had a trigger mechanism like this, with a spring acting downward on the trigger:

 

[cyten]

seems to be a common pattern that the well-armed man has a flintlock rifle, and in the sash, consistently a pair of pistols and a yataghan-type sabre. Which leads me to ask where the photos are from? Much more useful documentation if they have location and date, as best as known.

The historical photos I have posted have been throughout the Ottoman Empire and are hardly labeled with date or place. Some will specify the ethnicity of the subject in the photo (Kurd, Syrian, Armenian, Greek, Circassian, Albanian, etc) and the most common places (when specified) tend to be Constantinople, Trabzon & Smyrna. Dates are usually not specific (1860's-1880's etc) as they tend to come from collections of photographers. Sometimes the only way to tell anything about the where the setting could possibly be is by the study of the clothes worn by the subjects in the photo. Because although the Ottoman Empire was vast and many people lived in places outside of their homeland (Syrians in Greece, Albanians in Egypt etc) they almost always stuck to their ethnic costumes. It is trickier with the guns, certain regions were know for their styles (Albania/Montenegro-Tancica, Bosnia-Dzeferdar, Bulgaria-Boyliya), but different sorts of rifles could end up anywhere.

An example of a photo not giving a place or date, but the ethnicity of the subjects (Albanians, strangely with Ottoman Shishane rather than the Tancica they were more famous for)

An example of a photo listing the subject as a Zeybek Turk (meaning he's from the Aegean region) and the place, Smyrna. But no date.

And as for them always being armed with 2 pistols and a yataghan, this tends to be commonplace in the Balkan region of the Ottoman Empire. They tended to keep everything in a holster called a Selahlik or Silahlik. Sometimes it was worn under a sash, sometimes over one. It kept everything close together and secure along with the brass cartridge boxes (Palaska), pistol ramrods (Suma), powder measures etc.

The holster Ricky posted I believe is referred to as a Kuburluk which is a form of the word Kubur (Ottoman Horse Pistol). I believe these were adapted from cavalry holsters and eventually became popular in the more Arab regions of the Ottoman Empire, but are not unheard of in the Balkans.

Bedouin with Kuburluk holster

Turk with Kuburluk, photo dated 1873