Powder charge. How much powder do you use.

[ColonialRifleSmith]

As I read through various post, I'm always amazed how much powder is poured down a muzzleloader barrel. The general rule I was taught by my ol' grandpa' back in the 60's on the farm is caliber of the gun +/- 20%. Or put the ball in your palm and pour powder 'til it covers the ball. Reading post and at the range I see shooters loading with 90 to 120 grains powder in their smoke pole. IMHO, that's a lot of powder. Of course, not preaching to anyone on this forum, trying to discuss this with shooters only makes them defensive and angry.
I try to explain it like this. The tried-and-true 45/70. 45 cal. lead bullet pushed by 70 gr. black powder. With muzzle energy of more than 1,600 foot-pounds, the 405 grain FP bullet hit a distance of 200 yards and flew at 1,330 feet per second. This bullet easily killed bears, moose, and bison.
My personal experience has been with me wife's rifle. .45 cal. 36" Green Mountain Barrel. Patch and round ball pushed by 45 gr. 3F. last year I shot a buck at 125 yards face on. The ball went in the chest, bounced off the spine, smashed the rear femur at the hip and out the back butt. The other benefit of the lower charge is less smoke and flame. I never lost sight of the deer. Not that he went too far.
I personally use a .50 cal. 42" Green Mountain Barrel, pushed by 65 gr. 2F. I use the same powder in the pan and the barrel. It's never failed to drop whatever I'm shooting at.
I bought my grandson an in-line, (scared of a flintlock). .50 cal. however, we use a .45 cal. lead ball sabot pushed by 1 triple 7 50/50 pellet. He dropped his 1st deer with it this year.
So, after all that, my question is why so much powder? Does all that powder burn before it exits the 24" and 28" barrels?
I'm not trying to start an argument, just gathering information.
Semper Fi.

 

[nchawkeye]

It would be easier to keep it more simple, when you throw in the 45/70 with a 405gr bullet, that in no way compares to a round ball of .45 caliber...Then to add an inline with a 24-28 inch barrel, there goes another variable....

In my .54caliber flintlock with a 38 inch barrel, I use 80grs FFF and have for decades, I'm sure I could drop down to 60-70grs and be fine in the eastern hardwoods...When I hunted with a .45 I typically used 65grs FFF, it had a 42 inch barrel...

 

[waarp8nt]

The general rule I was taught by my ol' grandpa' back in the 60's on the farm is caliber of the gun +/- 20%.

Same thing I was taught 40 years ago by my old man. Never seen the need for huge powder charges East of the Mississippi. I might feel differently if West of the Mississippi and hunting Buffalo, Moose or Grizzly Bear.

 

[Brokennock]

While I don't see the need for huge powder charges most of the time, circumstances may vary, comparison of a .45 roundball to a 45/70 with a bullet is a false narrative.
I think that subconsciously a lot of shooters that come to muzzleloading with cartridge arm experience bring those performance expectations with them. Some of them with a touch of the magnumitis they had before.

 

[Dale Allen Raby]

I generally load about 50 grains behind a PRB in all my .45, .50, and .54 guns. If I am shooting conicals or plastic unmentionables with pistol bullets, I will increase that charge to 70 grains or so. My 12" barrels in .50, .54 (9") and 12 Ga. get thirty grains or so because of the short length. T/C Patriots in .45 & .36 get anywhere from 7 grains to maybe 20 grains at most. I'm still experimenting with those. My T/C Seneca in .36 gets 30 grains of powder for a PRB and the .32 Cherokee gets 15 to 20 grains, depending upon range, which is usually quite short, so mostly 15 grains under a PRB. I have done some experimenting with the Seneca and paper-patched .357 - .358 caliber 158 grain LSWC, but haven't increased the powder yet. Have also tried some .311 bullets in plastic unmentionables.

I have fired some 90 grain loads in some of these guns over the years, but mostly I don't like the recoil, the muzzle flash, the huge cloud of smoke that takes forever to dissipate and the unbelievable amount of fouling at the muzzle. As I would probably never encounter a deer/target further out than about fifty yards, I see no real need to waste powder just to make more smoke and to punish myself.

If I ever acquire a really big bore gun, I might increase the charge weight, but that is unlikely to happen any time soon. .54 is a big enough rifle for anything that lives on this continent, and if I want to defend myself against a sasquatch at close range, a .710 round ball dishes out a great deal of hurt, even from a 12" barrel and a 30 grain charge.

 

[TFoley]

Reading this I'm reminded that the load for a British 'Brown Bess' was 120gr, less a small amount in the pan.....

I use between 70 and 90gr of whatever - dependant on the range - for my .451 cal rifle. Look up the loads that Mr Idaho Lewis uses for his amazing long-range shooting, too.

 

[nkbj]

 

[andy52]

I generally use 80 grs 3f in my .54s and 50-60 in my 45s.
The only rifle I own that uses more is my .75 jaeger it maxes out at 200 grs of 2f but it's brutal with that charge and shoots better with 100-125.

 

[billraby]

I only use 80 grains in my 66 caliber and 100 grains in my 75 caliber. It works just fine. The 4 bore gets 400 to 450 grains of powder.

 

[smokepolehall]

I use from 45 gr up to 85 gr, cal. 45-50-54. I don't need anymore than that

 

[tenngun]

I agree. We see 2500-3500 fps on modern guns then 1300-2000 on an ml and think we need go big or go home.
A .45/70 in of itself not a good comparison. A cartridge uses powder more efficiently.
When I got into this I loaded for bear. But found it just wasn’t needed.
While I wouldn’t want to go after elk or buff with a .50 or .45 using ball, we know plenty of these animals were killed by these calibers.
In my TFC I found 70 three f or 80 two f works well and makes meat.
60 in my .45 shoots best, 70 in my 28 bore shoots best. And makes holes on both sides. Of deer in range.
Bess shot pretty low grade powder back in the day, as compared to civilian powder.
No formula seems to work. 35 grains in a .36 is a mite heavy. 50 in a .50 might be a bit lite.
1/3 ball weight works, sort of about 20 in a .36, 60 in a .50, 110 in a .62 getting heavy 180 in a bess, more then I want.
Just shoot for your best group and it will put meat on the table

 

[Loja man]

Not that I am an expert on the topic. But I use 60 to 65 FFG in my Traditions Kentucky in GPR 50 cal. Has been very effective on large white tail.

 

[ColonialRifleSmith]

View attachment 191957

Thanks for this post. This graft is awesome. Semper Fi.

 

[ColonialRifleSmith]

Tenngun wrote; Bess shot pretty low grade powder back in the day, as compared to civilian powder.

There's a lot written about Colonial Era Powder. You're correct about it's not up to the standards of modern black powder. I remember reading a historical account about a batch of powder the Colonials stole from the British. The powder was such poor quality, it wouldn't go off if you put a candle flame to it. Semper Fi.

 

[EC121]

I typically use 85gr. of 2f in my .54s. It groups well at 50yds. and recoil isn't much of an issue. Rarely hunt over 50yds. Ignition might be a touch slower but from a rest it doesn't matter.

 

[Bushfire]

I use and like what others consider "stout" loads. Works for me, and more importantly my guns like it. I don't judge nor care what others do, want to use 50 grains and go hunting, power to you.
End of story as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Absoroka]

If you read journals from the western fur trade, the traders ordered both lead and powder by the pound. They generally ordered twice as much lead by weight as they did powder. Historians have concluded that their average charge for a rifle was one half ball weight in powder. The traders also ordered different "grades" of powder. I guess the big difference between then and now is that their life depended on it.

 

[Bushfire]

If you read journals from the western fur trade, the traders ordered both lead and powder by the pound. They generally ordered twice as much lead by weight as they did powder. Historians have concluded that their average charge for a rifle was one half ball weight in powder. The traders also ordered different "grades" of powder. I guess the big difference between then and now is that their life depended on it.

I assume they were smart enough to allow for losses, I certainly do when casting.

 

[BillKilgore]

Let's see. 50 cal and 42" barrel, so....
((.25 x .25) x 3.1416) x 41.5 subtracting 1/2" for the ball and patch. Just over 8 cubic inches of powder is my max load.

Just kidding above.
I have a 50 cal early Lancaster rifle with a 42" barrel. I shot 3 round groups using Schuetzen FFFg powder, .495 Hornady round balls and .018 pillow ticking patch with TOTW mink oil lube. The average velocities over a chronograph were:
63 grains = 1460 fps
72 grains = 1579 fps
97 grains = 1858 fps

I have shot only paper and steel targets, so no reason to go crazy with the powder charge. 60 grains is plenty for my needs. When I worked up the original charge, 60 grains produced a slightly smaller pattern than 50 grains. 70-110 grains did not improve the spread.

 

[smokepolehall]

I reckon while were pondering all of our powder charges n ball/conicals weights. The 85 gr is my top load in my .54 using a 300 gr REAL. The rb gets by 60-75 in .54. My 2 50's run 75 gr top load conical n 60-70 with rb's. The 2 .45's i use 50 to 70 conicals n 50-65 with rb's. I spect i could use more or even less. Seems to shoot easier loads n lighter recoil on me. For my area i hunt 100 yds is a very long poke n i don't get those in the woods i hunt. Most of the time 90% of my shots are less than 65 yds. Maybe 50 % are no more the 40 yds