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Reasons for small bore MLers

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Skychief said:
I doubt that I'm the "odd man out", in that I much prefer two holes in any game that I shoot. Makes for a lot easier track than one hole should the critter go very far or through a tangled mess.

My take is the perfect hunting load shoots to my point of aim with enough oomph to get through the vitals. It's really that simple to me. :idunno:

Best regards all, Skychief.

Good point, but if the bullet delivers all if its energy into the vitals, odds are you won't have very far to track.

Anyway, this has been a fun discussion. To each his own, and above all, go with what gives you the most confidence. Master your chosen weapon and make well placed shots, and we'll all be lethal.
:thumbsup:
 
Little Buffalo said:
Skychief said:
I doubt that I'm the "odd man out", in that I much prefer two holes in any game that I shoot. Makes for a lot easier track than one hole should the critter go very far or through a tangled mess.

My take is the perfect hunting load shoots to my point of aim with enough oomph to get through the vitals. It's really that simple to me. :idunno:

Best regards all, Skychief.

Good point, but if the bullet delivers all if its energy into the vitals, odds are you won't have very far to track.

Anyway, this has been a fun discussion. To each his own, and above all, go with what gives you the most confidence. Master your chosen weapon and make well placed shots, and we'll all be lethal.
:thumbsup:

It's a wonder to me that a bullet (ball) is considered to have hit with less energy than what the ballistic tables calculate that energy to be simply because it passes through an animal.

If a ball at "X" velocity, and "Y" mass, has "Z" amount of energy at a given range, isn't a target at that range, struck with "Z" amount of energy regardless of where the projectile winds up?

If said projectile hits a Tyrannasaurus Rex (without an exit) or a pizza box (with an exit), hasn't it struck each with the same amount of energy???

I hope that you'll consider commenting on these thoughts as it appears that you're tiring of the thread. Maybe I'm missing something and would be pleased to know what, if I'm mistaken. Sincerely.

Best regards, Skychief
 
Never understood that myself skychief. Still hits with z force who cares if it goes through or not. Plus to keep it from going through you are simply making the force less. So even if it doesn't impart all of its force wouldn't it still impart atleast the same amount as the one that didn't go through.
 
George said:
Britsmoothy said:
The faster it goes not only does it hit harder but what it hits is also harder on it!
I just ran across an extreme example of how hard it can be on a really fast ball. For a long time my load for squirrels in my .30 caliber flintlock was 25 grains 3F and a .295" ball weighing only 38+ grains. I chronographed that load and got an average of 2120 fps. Looking at some old notes I saw that I used 35 grains 3F for a while. I never measured that one, but with 30% more powder it would have been very fast. I shot a fox squirrel in the left shoulder with it, and found the ball under the skin over the right kidney, completely flattened and split 1/3-2/3. I'm amazed it didn't pass through.

Spence
The important "take away" should be that .....it killed that squirrel "deader than a door nail".....
 
Well yes.
And all this energy talk is nuts!
I need the energy! My shaver needs energy.
Anything I'm shootin' I am trying to take its energy away, not give it more :doh:

B
 
Ever hear of the Taylor Knockout Formula? Since you rely on math, try this method instead. Here, just to make it easy on you

http://www.n4lcd.com/calc/

As an aside, unless you are comparing the two calibers at the same velocity, then you aren't comparing apples to apples, but rather apples to oranges and wondering why your comparison is skewed. Of course you will get higher velocities with the .50 than the .54 IF you're using the same powder charge, but here is your flaw. In my case, I use 70grs of FFFg in my .50, so by your logic, I need to hang up my .50 because I can get much higher velocities if I was to stuff that same 70grs FFFg into my .32, and that will OBVIOUSLY be a much better deer rifle because it gets higher velocity. Doesn't work that way. Using my .50 powder load with my .54, or the same load with my .32, makes as much sense as using my 20gr FFFg powder load that my .32 likes, and using it out of my .710" (13ga) smoothbore, and then declaring the 13ga as too weak and inefficient to hunt with. And while I like and trust my .50, I prefer my .54, and it DOES outperform my .50, but I load it what it likes, instead of limiting it to the same powder load as my .50 uses, as you suggest.
 
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Skychief said:
If a ball at "X" velocity, and "Y" mass, has "Z" amount of energy at a given range, isn't a target at that range, struck with "Z" amount of energy regardless of where the projectile winds up?
The projectile arrives at the target with "Z" energy, yes, but it gives up some of it to the target. That's what damages the target, the transfer of energy from the projectile to the target. If the ball passes completely through the target, then it doesn't give up all its energy. That's obvious, because it's still moving on the other side, kinetic energy, and we've read of a ball passing through one deer and killing another standing behind it. If the ball doesn't pass completely through, then it dumps all its energy into the target. Some of the energy goes toward ripping a hole in the tissue, some toward creating a shock wave which spreads through the tissue, some to deforming the ball, some to sound, some to heat of friction...and others, I guess.

The argument about this has always been, which is best, dumping all the energy and thus creating maximum damage within the tissue, or just enough to make a hole clear through to let the juice out.

I doubt any of us here will live long enough to see this one decided. :haha:

Spence
 
Skychief said:
It's a wonder to me that a bullet (ball) is considered to have hit with less energy than what the ballistic tables calculate that energy to be simply because it passes through an animal.

If a ball at "X" velocity, and "Y" mass, has "Z" amount of energy at a given range, isn't a target at that range, struck with "Z" amount of energy regardless of where the projectile winds up?

If said projectile hits a Tyrannasaurus Rex (without an exit) or a pizza box (with an exit), hasn't it struck each with the same amount of energy???

I hope that you'll consider commenting on these thoughts as it appears that you're tiring of the thread. Maybe I'm missing something and would be pleased to know what, if I'm mistaken. Sincerely.

Best regards, Skychief

Great question. I started typing a reply earlier this morning, but it quickly got too complicated so this is my effort to give you a simple response and conserve some time. If need be I can expand.

Think about a marathon runner who breaks through a ribbon as he crosses the finish line. Now replace that paper ribbon with a steel cable and imagine the result.

In both cases the runner has the same amount of kinetic energy, so why can the runner break through the paper ribbon with no consequence, but he would be stopped and severely injured by the cable?

The answer comes from Newton's Third Law: for every action, there is a reaction.

When the runner runs into the cable, he is exerting a force on it. The cable reacts back with the same amount of force. Because the cable is strong, it can take a lot of force before it breaks, so it is able to react to the full force of the runner, causing him to stop (and be injured). In other words, the cable stops the runner by applying a force on the runner. The source of the force came from the runner himself who first acted on the cable. But because to every force there is a reaction, the cable reacted by matching the force that the runner applied to it.

Back to the paper ribbon. The paper ribbon is not strong enough to react to the full force of the runner. Instead the ribbon breaks at a force much lesser. The runner keeps on going, maintaining most of his energy. He only imparted a small force (or energy) to the paper because that's all the paper could take until it reach its limit and broke. The ribbon did not stop him, because it did not react with the same force, so the runner was left passing through and maintaining most of his energy.

Now it's the same thing with a paper target. The paper can only provide a little resistance to the bullet before it tears. When this happens, the bullet keeps on going with most of its energy. The only energy the paper took from the bullet was the amount needed to tear a hole in the paper. The bullet did NOT exert all of its energy onto the paper, because the paper could not provide an equal reaction.

Does that make sense?

To get back to our exit wound scenario, any object that is in motion has kinetic energy. The bullet gets this energy from the explosion of the gun powder. For a bullet to do the most damage to an animal, you want the bullet to transfer as much of that explosion to the animal as possible.

If the bullet goes through thin flesh that does not have the ability to resist or react to the force of the bullet (like our paper ribbon), the bullet will break through and keep going, maintaining much of its energy. But if you hit say a bone that is able to react by stopping the ball completely, it absorbed all of the energy from that explosion and probably ended up annihilated, like our runner who ran into the cable (or in this case a brick wall).

To LD's point, this collision would in fact distort the ball which would change how it behaves from that point on, but the energy transfer principal is still the same.

In general, the more energy from that gun powder explosion you can transfer to the animal, the more destructive the result will be.
 
Then how do you explain a kill from an arrow? Not much energy, but a whole lot of cutting of vital organs. There are many reasons for a projectile killing an animal and also a lot of conjecture.....Fred
 
flehto said:
Then how do you explain a kill from an arrow? Not much energy, but a whole lot of cutting of vital organs. There are many reasons for a projectile killing an animal and also a lot of conjecture.....Fred

This discussion was about rifle calibers, as you should know since you started it. The arrow wound is inflicted by cutting of the head, not the kinetic energy. Entirely different mechanism.
 
I still say that what takes game, where our guns are concerned for the most part, are loss of blood and/or air, or a disruption of the central nervous system.

I do understand the many above posts.

Best regards and make it a great weekend, Skychief :thumbsup:
 
Little Buffalo said:
flehto said:
Then how do you explain a kill from an arrow? Not much energy, but a whole lot of cutting of vital organs. There are many reasons for a projectile killing an animal and also a lot of conjecture.....Fred

This discussion was about rifle calibers, as you should know since you started it. The arrow wound is inflicted by cutting of the head, not the kinetic energy. Entirely different mechanism.

Kinetic energy is the reason the arrow penetrates as deeply as it does in order to cut.
 
It just occurred to me....

Kinetic energy wasn't invented till after the civil war and round balls had already been phased out by then.

The process for plating kinetic energy onto bullets was only perfected for conical bullets, and that in time for the Spanish American War, where those tricky Cubans used it to good effect on Ole Teddy's Rough Riders.

Now it comes in a plastic sabot, so it's really no wonder there's all this confusion when trying to plate it onto round balls and launch them without sabots.

I knew there was a reason this conversation got all wonky and confusing to guys dedicated to using technology from before the civil war! :rotf:
 
We've figured out how the natural laws work at various time in our history, (well, some of us have :wink: ) but they were working from the big bang till this afternoon. They were working when Adam threw rocks at the serpent. :haha:

Spence
 
In my many experiences in killing deer sized game I equate muzzleloaders and shotgun slugs to broadheads, meaning that they kill by creating massive hemorrhaging, not hydrostatic shock waves. Whether hit with a 50 caliber pbr/conical or a 12 gauge one ounce slug, one hole or two leaking bodily fluids, said deer is going to make a mad death run,just like an arrow. Why? Because neither of those projectiles create a large enough disruption inside the animal to knock it's feet out from under it consistently.
When the fps is elevated to center fire cartridge velocities then the reaction becomes different. Bang/flops are much more common.
For muzzleloader style weapons I much prefer a bigger hole over a smaller hole. Tracking can be more rewarding when the spoor is readily apparent.
My $.02.CP
 
From my centerfire days on deer they all but a couple ran!
Bang flops came from neck shots, a ball pretty much does the same on a neck shot.

As for hydrostatic, standing still in water makes my feet cold. :doh:
 
Christophero said:
In my many experiences in killing deer sized game I equate muzzleloaders and shotgun slugs to broadheads, meaning that they kill by creating massive hemorrhaging, not hydrostatic shock waves. Whether hit with a 50 caliber pbr/conical or a 12 gauge one ounce slug, one hole or two leaking bodily fluids, said deer is going to make a mad death run,just like an arrow. Why? Because neither of those projectiles create a large enough disruption inside the animal to knock it's feet out from under it consistently.
When the fps is elevated to center fire cartridge velocities then the reaction becomes different. Bang/flops are much more common.
For muzzleloader style weapons I much prefer a bigger hole over a smaller hole. Tracking can be more rewarding when the spoor is readily apparent.
My $.02.CP
I've shot deer with a bow and had them fall over stone dead right in their tracks....I've also done it with high-powered rifles, shotguns, muzzleloaders and handguns.....even the tiny .22 long rifle will dump large game in their tracks.
IF YOU HIT THEM IN THE RIGHT SPOT.

I have also seen deer keep on running when shot with any weapon regardless of whether
it was a muzzleloader or center fire.....large or small.

I've seen deer die without any appreciable blood loss and minimal damage....and I've trailed deer for over a mile, never to be recovered...

When it comes to hunting....everything is a variable....There are no absolute standards....
 
Britsmoothy said:
So your saying a bullet does not kill by blood letting.
Energy magically does something :doh:

You're funny. :thumbsup:

B.

Not in the same way an arrow does. The PRIMARY way a bullet does its damage is by instantly destroying organs and disrupting critical functions. We didn't get into hydrostatic shock or any other dynamics of a bullet wound, but the bullet shouldn't cause death by loss of blood. That can certainly be a side affect, especially on a shot not directly to the vitals, but a properly placed shot fired from a gun with sufficient energy, should cause virtually instant and catastrophic damage to the boiler room. The animal is usually dead before it bleeds out.

The PRIMARY way an arrow does its damage is by causing hemorrhaging. A shot directly to critical organs usually allows the deer to run up to several hundred yards until it bleeds out.

Obviously a bullet causes some bleeding, and the arrow causes organs to fail, but again its two different mechanism. And of course energy is critical to both as it takes energy to drive the arrow, just as it does the bullet. But you couldn't kill a deer with a bullet if it only had the energy of an arrow. Its two different mechanisms.

You guys who are concerned about the difference in blood loss between a .50 and a .54 wound, you must be using elephant calibers for deer when you modern hunt. :wink:



When it comes to hunting....everything is a variable....There are no absolute standards....

Actually, there is one standard truth that is always constant no matter what: deer are tough critters to kill!
 
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