Rifle Balance

[hankfannin]

What would be considered the ideal balance point for a rifle that's shot off-hand. I have several rifles, some that I've made, some bought, but none seem to feel just right. I read about rifles that are balanced so well that when pointed at a target they just seem to hang on target making that little figure 8 movement. Mine all seem to be barrel heavy and/or so light that it takes muscle power to hold them on target. How do you achieve that balance when building a rifle? I hold my rifle with my left hand against my body so my balance point needs to be right in front of the trigger guard, not out by the ramrod entry. Any suggestions or tips on doing this?

Greyhawk

 

[Birddog6]

You go to events & shows & rondy's & shoulder Hundreds of dif. rifles til ya find what fits you. Or at least that is what I did. :idunno:

Only took me about 15 years & buying & selling bout a hundred dif. ML's :rotf: :rotf:

Seriously...... What messes up most people in shooting is they think it is always the rifle, when actually it is normally the person. Now the rifle must fit well to be comfortable.... :thumbsup:

But the major component is the person & conditioning..... If you take that rifle, whatever it is, lay it by the door, put a wooden flint in it & pick that rifle up every time you go by it & take your time & take your time & breathe & slowly fire it at a dot on the wall 10 times each time you go by it..... You will Condition yourself to hold it on target & easily.

Like most sports, Conditioning is important, even in shooting. That is why you may start out shooting in the day quite well, later get worse, end up horrible. You are Tired, even tho you may not realize it. Conditioning....... To shoot well & repeatedly for a long day, you must Shoot Allot !

If you are very strong & young you may need less conditioning. But as you age yoru muscles tend to get weaker, especially after age 50 & then it muscle fatigue sets in promptly.

Finding a rifle that fits IS important.

Conditioning to shoulder it well is important as well. :thumbsup:

Keith Lisle

 

[galamb]

I think, to some extent, the "preferred" balance point is a personal thing.

I have read where some shooters prefer a little front heavy for various reasons.

In a shotgun/fowler you might want it back heavy so it swings well on a faster moving target.

I always shoot my rifles from a rest - either bench or front supported (stand hunting) so for me it's more about how the rifle carries.

I prefer mine to balance "exactly" where my left hand would hold the stock when I'm shooting it (and when I carry it it's balanced which "feels" easier to carry) - so "neither" front or back heavy in the least.

I can accomplish this because I build my own so some of my dimensions are determined so that my balance point will occur immediately between the tang on the ramrod inlet pipe and the rear pin/wedge holding the barrel.

Here's a pic of a 50 cal/36" bbl Ohio that I built a while back. It's balancing on a small Mason jar (top is about the width of my palm)

 

[ptaska]

Well said, Birddog6. I have been doing exactly what you describe and my hold is getting better. I tried to figure out exercises that work those muscles involved in shouldering a rifle. But then the thought hit me--use the rifle It's a lot more fun than holding a barbell out into space.

 

[Vaino]

My squirrel LR has a .45 cal. bll X 7/8" X 42" lg and is definitely muzzle heavy, but fits and holds well w/ the left arm extended and supporting the forend just below the enrty pipe.

Which brings up an important factor....many right and left handed shooters have opposite arms that are much weaker than the mostly used arm, me included. So, the "off arm" needs conditioning.

Many hunters only mount their guns a few days before use and then are puzzled as to why they can't "hit".....one reason is that they're not in shape and the "off arm" is really not in shape.

If a gun's weight and balance are found to be critical, perhaps not being in shape is the reason.

Personally I prefer a slightly muzzle heavy rifle.... I definitely don't like it to be muzzle light.

So....if one is to enjoy the "sport" of shooting, it behooves one to get in shape.....Fred

 

[matt denison]

RULE OF THUMB:

A well built rifle should balance at the entry pipe

A correctly built shotgun should balance between the hands.

Now, of course what "feels right" for one shooter won't feel right for another. Length of pull, swamped or straight barrel, fat or slim butt, overall weight, amount of drop, all factor into what will or won't work for any particular individual.

At a recent trade show I was handed a gun and when I shouldered it I could not get a cheek weld for nuthin. I handed it back without comment. Two hours later a friend of mine picked it up and said "Finally! A gun that fits me!" and he bought it on the spot. He shoots it well and loves it. Go figure.

 

[BrownBear]

At a recent trade show I was handed a gun and when I shouldered it I could not get a cheek weld for nuthin. I handed it back without comment. Two hours later a friend of mine picked it up and said "Finally! A gun that fits me!" and he bought it on the spot. He shoots it well and loves it. Go figure.

That correctly points out that we're all built differently, from height to arm gangle to cheek bones. And we hunt different species, locations and terrains. Heck, some of us never step beyond the range or trail walk, and some of us never go near such civilized terrain.

Buying a rifle without shouldering it is kinda like buying pants with no size label and no chance to try them on. Once you find what works for you in a gun, you can do some measuring and get closer to how the next rifle ought to be assembled, but that will always be an approximation. The proof of the pudding comes when you press butt to shoulder and cheek to comb.

 

[hankfannin]

Thanks to all that replied and it's much appreciated, BUT - what I was looking for since this is the builders forum is how to get a rifle balanced at the point that one wants when building. Do you add weights to the stock? Do you shorten the barrel. There must be some balance considerations besides just putting it all together and hoping it balances where you want.

I get all the conditioning and strength building but I'd still like to be able to get my next build balanced.

Greyhawk

 

[Vaino]

When installing the sights, the LR is held w/ the hand at the balance point and the rear sight is either in front of or to the rear of my hand..... the hand ends up cradling the forestock at the entry pipe which for me is where my hand is when shooting.

W/ the hand at the balance point, the weight is neutral. These spec LRs are sold to unknown customers and have never rec'd any complaints.

As I previously stated....for me a slightly muzzle heavy LR is preferred......Fred

 

[galamb]

When building you have some wiggle room in where you put the entry pipe for the ramrod in relation to the breech (or whatever point you might measure from).

Moving that entry pipe an inch one way or the other can have a dramatic effect on "how the rifle will balance at that point".

When you shoulder a rifle your (supporting) hand will naturally go (near) the entry pipe which is at the transition from rear forestock (which is "fatter") and the front forestock which is thinner (in a full stock rifle) - now whether that is 12, 13 or 14" in front of the breech won't make much of a difference to your hand (unless the reach is extreme relative to the length of your arm), but will effect the "balance point".

Likewise, when building a half-stock the option of using a solid or hollow under-rib can add or remove weight from the front end. That combined with moving the nosecap back or forth an inch either way can produce perfect balance.

So what I generally do is: lay out the rifle on my blank but leave a potential "range" for the transition from upper/lower forestock or nose and when it gets close to actually having to finalize it's location, I check the balance of the rifle "as is".

If I will add a patch box, I move it forward perhaps 1/4" or 1/2" from the balance point and call it good.

It almost always works out.

Despite all that, if it is absolutely muzzle heavy (long straight barrel), you can always add weight to the butt, under the butt plate, after the fact.

In the book, "The Gunsmith of Grenville County" there is a good section on how to find/set the balance point when building a rifle. Explained better that I ever could (as my stumbling above clearly proves )

A worthwhile book for the starting builder.

 

[hankfannin]

Now that's the kind of info I was looking for. I didn't really even think that the position of the entry pipe could make that much difference. That's something I'll definitely consider.

Thanks

Greyhawk

 

[illuveatar]

I have a very light CVA that seemed to be a little front heavy to me. So I installed a patchbox and filled it with roundballs. This brought the center of balance back a few inches so it now feels right when I shoulder it. I suppose one could also install a lead weight beneath the butt plate to serve the same purpose.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

A well built rifle should balance at the entry pipe

That's where I like my hunting rifles to balance, but a new friend of mine has a rifle that coincidentally was made by an old friend of mine, and he's a master builder. The builder made the rifle very specifically for offhand, or "standing unsupported" shooting, and it balances about 1/4 of the way from the muzzle to the butt. When you stand in the unsupported postion... the muzzle simply stays put... muzzle heavy in feel, sure, but it does what he built it for.

LD

 

[Vaino]

Usually when building a LR from a blank, the dim of the dropoff from the forestock to the forend is 12-1/4"-12-3/8" from the breech and this is achieved when the blank is bandsawed. The balance point somehow is always at the entry pipe w/ swamped bbls, irregardless of whether A B or C weights. Lucky I guess.

When the LR is in-the-white, the rear sight is installed, usually forward of my hand which is at the balance point.

Having a shorter forestock lends a certain "slimness" to the LR...especially w/ 46" bbls which are my favorites......Fred

 

[Stophel]

What would be considered the ideal balance point for a rifle that's shot off-hand.

Right in front of the lock. :wink:

Unfortunately, longer barrels generally don't allow this, and with straight barrels, it's probably impossible.

 

[galamb]

Fred,

just wonderin' what you named that rifle?

Stubby???? :rotf:

 

[hankfannin]

Thanks to all that have replied and I do appreciate the responses, BUT - it seems I must have not stated my question clearly. I know and understand that "most" consider the pipe entry the proper balance point. I shoot off-hand and what I want is for the rifle balance point to be just forward of the trigger guard. I hold with my left hand tight against my body supported by my bones - not with my hand out under the pipe entry.

My question is how to best do that with a rifle that's balanced, (I'll use correctly here.) I need to move the balance point back about 12 inches.

Any suggestions on how to do that?

Greyhawk

 

[galamb]

To move it "back" that far you will need to add weight to the butt.

One of the common ways to do so is remove the butt plate, drill a hole (fair sized) a couple inches into the butt stock and fill it with (poured) lead or pewter (or any other suitable heavy substance).

Then replace the butt plate to (hide) it.

Check the "balance" and adjust as necessary (add more or drill some of it out etc).

You can rig some kind of (pivot) up under the "preferred" balance point on the rifle and use some weights (of "known" weight) until you get it "teeter tottering" - that will give you (somewhat) of an idea of how much weight you will have to add.

 

[Vaino]

"Stubby" could be it's name, but I don't name any of my guns. That's a 46" bbl but I would like to go longer {48"-50"} but then the costs are much higher for not only the bbl but also the blank. The pictured LR was sold 3 weeks after completion and I sometimes wonder if my customers do name their new guns.....Fred

 

[Col. Batguano]

A real easy way to deal with it would be to put the weights in the patch box. Or maybe even install one of those mercury filled recoil reducers. I have one of them in my 375 H&H and it made a BIG difference in felt recoil. If you pack the patch box full of round balls (but not too tightly) they may function is a similar way, as they will roll forward under recoil. Not as fluidly as a liquid, but they will do it slightly.