Rifle will not fire?

[GregLaRoche]

Use a drill bit the same size as the nipple hole in a pair of vise grips. Go down as fare as you can into the the charge itself. Then slowly work 4F powder down into the space you have created, filling it completely. Then put on a cap and try. If that doesn’t work you will have to pull the ball. Consider using real BP in the future.

 

[johnraleksa]

I have it soaking now, I will come back to it tomorrow.

Also, does this screw play a role in removing the nipple? I have never read that it would, but I have to ask.View attachment 61128

CLEAN OUT SCREW!!! if you all ready soaked the nipple it might be to late but unscrew the CLEAN OUT SCREW. make sure you don't lose it then get a pipe cleaner(tobacco pipe) push that in to that clean out hole. I have been able to push it in to the barrel. if clean and dry then push
as much powder in the hole as you can, replace screw. put a cap on nipple shoot in safe direction. that has worked for me many many times sometimes

I have it soaking now, I will come back to it tomorrow.

Also, does this screw play a role in removing the nipple? I have never read that it would, but I have to ask.View attachment 61128

I have to do it 3 times

 

[LRSmoker]

Have you tried to remove the clean out screw on the side ? Sometimes the clean out screw is too long and jams against the end of the nipple threads preventing it from being unscrewed. If you can remove the clean out screw you can use a 1/8 diameter drill to ensure that the passage way to the patent breech is clear. You should also be able to remove and clean the nipple. If you use a bit of penetrating oil on the threads it might help but try to prevent it going into the patent breech and causing you further problems. Use your ramrod to see where the bullet or ball is in the barrel. This should tell you if there’s a double charge etc... If you have a double charge you pull the projectile’s and powder until the barrel is clear and perform a good cleaning. Any of the pellets will be much more difficult to ignite in a sidelock with a patent breech because you are not able to get the powder downer than about 1” from the ignition hole. Always pay close attention to what you are doing because you are playing with a loaded firearm and they do not forgive if they go off.

 

[TFoley]

Pyrodex pellets usually have a small initiation charge of proper BP located in the centre. This aids the burn when they are used, as intended, in an 'unmentionable', as the ignition flame from that style cap impinges directly onto it. The rest of the pellet has a somewhat 'hardened' surface in order to aid handling and to resist crumbling whilst doing so.

Back in 1980 I was given a pack of them to use in my then-new rogers & Spencer revolver. It took me about ten caps to fire two shots - they got burned on the spot.

 

[GregLaRoche]

In my experience myself and helping others, a screw type ball puller only works half the time. What you are up against, is the screw self tapping into the ball causing it to expand and putting pressure against the bore. Ideal world be to attach a drill bit to the end of a rod and pre drill the ball before using the screw puller. Also, I’ve seen that some screw pullers have different threads, that are coarser than others and may screw in without expanding the ball as much.

 

[Ames]

Go back to square one.
Pull the ball.
Dump the pellets down the toilet.
Get some real black powder.

 

[wb78963]

One other thing.
Using the ram rod lay it on the barrel from the line where the breech plug screws into the barrel and make a mark at the muzzle end.
Now stick it down the muzzle and see how much obstruction you have if any.
Then you will have an idea as to your problem.
Good luck
Bunk

 

[dlaw4570]

You might give a little help by telling us what type of rifle you're fooling with. New or Used? Initially I would get rid of the pellets. Did you snap a few caps to see if the barrel is clear? First step. If the barrel is clear and dry, get rid of the pellets! Load a light load of FFF with just a wad of paper to get a little compression, also much easier to pull if it still won't fire, point it in a safe direction and try to fire it. If it fires you're golden if not there are other issues. Good luck

 

[mooman76]

You an make a nipple wrench by taking a small 1/4" drive socket and cutting it to fit the nipple with a dremal tool. That way you an get some leverage to remove the nipple.

 

[muzzlecap]

You might give a little help by telling us what type of rifle you're fooling with. New or Used? Initially I would get rid of the pellets. Did you snap a few caps to see if the barrel is clear? First step. If the barrel is clear and dry, get rid of the pellets! Load a light load of FFF with just a wad of paper to get a little compression, also much easier to pull if it still won't fire, point it in a safe direction and try to fire it. If it fires you're golden if not there are other issues. Good luck

He did. It is a used Investarms from 1975.

 

[rotag84]

From the photo, looks like you may be able to get a small open end wrench around the nipple from the side? It may be SAE size or metric. Also, as others suggested, try removing the clean out screw. Either way, push a pick, paper clip, pipe cleaner etc. through in to the chamber then work in some fine grain powder. Put a cap on it and point in a safe direction than drop the hammer. I have had to do this more than once.

 

[S.Kenton]

Go back to square one.
Pull the ball.
Dump the pellets down the toilet.
Get some real black powder.

A lot of good suggestions, but some that would confuse a “ new to muzzleloading“ individual. Ames is correct, keep it as simple as possible. I would add to his post by suggesting, if you have a gunsmith nearby, take the barrel to him and have him remove the nipple. You could also ask around here if there is someone on this forum nearby to simply come over and lend ya a hand. You may even have an option of sending it off to someone to pull the nipple.Even if you get the current load to fire off, your going to need to remove the nipple eventually to replace/ clean. As you had stated before, you seen some YouTube videos... those are a great resource. Once you get the nipple out and the pellets out, CLEAN CLEAN CLEAN... then OIL OIL OIL!! Buy another nipple or two. Remove the nipple during your normal cleaning process, lightly dab a small bit of oil on the threads and you’ll never have to worry about the threads seizing up.
Ask here for anything muzzeloader related... there’s a lot to learn... but it’s worth it in the long run!
Good luck and keep us posted.

 

[William Lincoln]

Ya pull everything. Jaeger & Tom are on it. Once the mystery is solved and you go to use up those
pellets try 2 or 3 grains of 4f as a pre-charge to help ignite the pellets. Pellets are designed
mainly for your 209 In-Line systems. Some pellets come with ends coated. They are very handy
to load with but are harder to ignite. As the men here advise, once you clear your bore, go back to
real powder. Online you can use a number of suppliers. Powder inc, Buffalo etc. If you use Graff's
be aware there is a big delay of over 20 days till they ship. Graff's has good prices on their house
brand at $16 or so but you wait awhile too.

 

[Tanglefoot]

Just about everything that could be done has been mentioned, and I can't add anything new that would help you except to suggest very strongly that you treat that piece as a loaded weapon and always (ALWAYS!) keep it pointed in safe direction -- especially while you're trying to figure out why it isn't doing what you want it to do -- fire normally. While you're sorting all that out, I would like to add my voice to the others and suggest you lose the pellets without further delay. They are supposed to be a "convenience" for folks who want to use non-traditional muzzleloaders to take advantage of a familiar platform or an extra season. They are designed specifically to function in those non-traditional ML's which have a different mechanical structure than traditionals do. What you were advised to do is an attempt to use non traditional propellant in a traditional rifle. It does not work as well, like making Prime Rib out of soybeans.

 

[MrMackc]

Have any of you ever used engine starting fluid squirted in the nipple than fired a cap ? Just an idea I had, if you don't have any access to REAL black powder. one of my WAGs.

 

[JohnL]

Superman
If the other methods of removing what ever is stuck in the barrel doesn't work, there is another solution. It is usually reserved for the last attempts to remove an obstruction because it is rather messy.

If you don't have one, go to your auto parts store and buy a pump type grease gun. Also buy several tubes of grease. The lowest cost grease you can find that will work in the grease gun.
Also, take the removed nipple with you when you go to the auto parts store.
Show the guy the nipple and tell him you want to buy a grease fitting zerk that will match the nipple threads. (Yes, zerk.)

When you get home, screw the zerk into the nipple hole using just your fingers to screw it in. It doesn't have to be tightend with a wrench but it must turn into the hole at least 3 revolutions.

Attack the grease gun and start pumping the grease into the zerk. Keep pumping grease until the barrel obstruction is forced out of the muzzle.

After you've done this, remove the zerk leaving the nipple hole open and start removing the grease. Don't forget to clean the flame channel between the bottom of the nipple hole and the bore. A couple of pipe cleaners can help to force the grease out of that little hole.
It's a messy job but it works every time.

I’ve used this to remove a stuck jag after a ram rod broke in a barrel. Safe and easy. Do it outside as you’ll be cleaning a good bit.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Here we are just one day since this thread started and we are on the fourth page and no obvious resolution. Several good methods have been proposed and by now one of them should have worked.

Lets look at the problem. Actually there are three problems. Failure to fire. Nipple can't be removed. How to pull a load.

I have cleaned the muzzleloader I just bought and loaded the barrel (2 pellets, and a round). Loaded the percussion caps and snap...no fire, over and over, no fire...any ideas? I already cleaned the nipple. With the nipple pick/cleaner.

On a side note, I can't get the damn nipple to unscrew at all, I am worried I will damage the gun if I try to hard.

Will the puller work on Sabot ?

Now we have a question on what is the round in there? Unless it has a hollow point with soft lead, a bullet puller may cause more problems.

Now before we go searching for a Black Powder - Muzzle Loader Savvy Gunsmith, we can try a few things.

First I would address the getting the round and the two Pyrodex Plugs, err Pellets out.

Since the nipple is not budging, then it is likely that the Clean Out Screw won't budge either. The nipple has a very tiny flash hole so filling the nipple with 4f or Null B and popping a cap probably isn't going to work since penetrating oil has been used on the nipple to try to get it to loosen. This is the time to get the CO2 bullet discharger or the compressed air discharger. there you need a proper mating interface to seal off the nipple. A hot shot nipple has that venting hole so unless that is sealed off, you won't get enough pressure in the flash channel to expel the load. If compressed air or CO2 won't dislodge the load then its on to the next method.

Back to the loaded gun with the stuck nipple. Hopefully the nipple threads have gotten some sort of penetrating oil in them. Since Superman5433 probably doesn't have a suitable impact tool, we have to use his nipple wrench. Remove the barrel from the stock. This is a hooked breech rifle so that is simple enough. Next the barrel should be placed in the padded jaws of a well secured vise. Use the nipple wrench and tap the top of the wrench applying torque to first tighten then loosen the nipple. With any luck that should loosen the nipple for removal. Once the nipple is out, then follow @Zonie's method for getting a zerk fitting and a grease gun. If the nipple still can't be removed, then we can look at another method the ball puller.

I just watched @B P Maniac Shooter's video. He used a long drill to drill out the ball. If I saw correctly that bit has a threaded tip that would screw into the round so it could be pulled out. Do watch the video as he used the drill bit to drill through the ball to remove the ball. At that point the patched ball remnants could be removed and the bore cleaned up. I'm concerned that getting all the pieces of the dry ball That worked for him but we also have pellets to worry about. I have had reasonable luck with a ball puller and compressed air. Ball pullers need to be centered in the bore to enter the ball so that the threads in the puller can fully grab and pull the ball out. We are in luck here as the barrel is clean so fouling isn't adding more things to make this more complicated. If you have a ball puller and bullet in the sabot has a hollow point with soft lead for the puller to grab, wrap some tape around the working rod to center the puller in the bore. Thread the puller three or four turns into the bullet and pull the bullet out. Then the sabot and the powder pellets.

If the puller doesn't work, then take the barrel to the Muzzle Loader Savvy gunsmith to remove the breech and drive all that junk out and remove and replace the nipple.

As a new user of muzzleloaders, it was recommended to use the pellets, seems I shouldn't have listened? This guy has a Hawkins and it works fine for him. Quite similar weapons.

This is a notice that what works for other people doesn't always work for you. The pellets offer a convenient way to load without the bother of a measure. the theory sounds good, but those pellets are more intended for an inline rifle and in practice don't always work well in a side lock.

 

[fillwa]

I have found the Thomson Center Wedge puller & Nipple wrench combination to be superior.

#1 priority is getting the barrel cleared. Take it to a gun smith or experienced patch & ball shooter if need be.

I recommend doing some research on loading and shooting your rifle. There is a lot of information on the internet.

Once you get your barrel cleared, nipple issue resolved, and rifle thoroughly cleaned, shoot loose powder with patched round ball.

Have fun and be safe.

 

[MSW]

well, don't feel bad ... it seems that you have a bad load under the load you put in.
* the advice about ditching the pellets is good ... I would also recommend that you ditch the pellets and get some real black powder ... 3 F will probably be your best bet ...

* you will probably have to do as Zonie recommends - replace the nipple with a zerk fitting and shove out the whole mess with grease. messy but effective ... once done, you will of course have to clean up everything ... have a good bit of something disposable under the muzzle to catch the grease ... i used a brown paper shopping bag when this happened to me & it worked OK ... do this outside .. (don't ask me how i know)

* again, don't feel too embarrassed ... there are three kinds of people who "dryball: those who have, those who have and won't admit it, and those who will soon ...

* it appears from the photos that you have a Thompson Center "Renegade" (if the barrel is one inch across the flats, yours is a Renegade, if it's not, it's most probably a "Hawken." These are well made rifles and, although they don't have much to do with the "Hawken" rifles of the Hawken brothers in St Louis, they will provide you a lifetime of good service if properly cared for.

* if it is in fact a T/C, it most probably has a "patent' breech. this design features a smaller channel between the flash channel and the bore ... make sure that (if your rifle has this feature) you have a smaller brush to clean out this smaller bit ... if not, stuff will clog up in it and you'll have crappy ignition, or no ignition ... the system works great when it works (which it will if kept scrupulously clean) but pretty badly if not...

*DO NOT try to remove the breech plug. if you do, and you manage to get it apart without damaging the whole deal, getting it back together without messing up will be either an incredible stroke of luck or will take more work than you care to put into the system... i did this once - i have the toolage for it, and i was able to get the flats to align, and the faces of the breech and the breechplug to align, but not exactly, so i had to re- file and refinish the whole deal ... doable, but a big pain in the bla bla bla ... don't go there - it's not necessary ...

* once you get the load(s) pulled (actually pushed), and the rifle cleaned up, you will have a perfectly good and serviceable gun, which will give you a great deal of pleasure for many years. do:

DON'T GIVE UP

* also, once you get the mess cleaned up, grab a copy of Dutch Schoultz' method. Here's a link:

Black powder rifle accuracy system -

* hope this helps, and,

make good smoke

 

[BP Addict]

The first thing I do with a newly acquired Muzzle Loader is remove the barrel, tang, lock and trigger(s). I check to make sure there are no obstructions in the barrel. I received one from a Gun Broker auction that still had a load in it! I clean everything and oil the lock and trigger(s), then reassemble.

Pellets were not designed for side-locks. Neither was loose Triple 7. Most Pellets have a darker end that aids in ignition which is to be loaded towards the breech. I experimented with T-7 in a side-lock a while back. I experienced ignition problems with the stock nipple. I switched to a hotter type; Spitfire Magnum by Mountain State Muzzleloading. The end inside the gun is coned. It fired every time. You have to reduce the load by 15% and I didn’t really see any significant gain by using it. They say you can leave your gun for a week without cleaning. Even though the caps are supposed to be “non-corrosive”, if you don’t at least wipe the top of the breech area, it will eat the finish.

You have a few choices, take it to the range, feed some fine powder down the nipple and shoot it out, pull the charge with a screw puller or take it to a competent Gun Smith who works on Muzzle Loaders. I use a product called PB Blaster which works good for loosening stuck things like nipples. There are others Like Kroil which I’ve been told is much superior.

I modified a Hex- shaped Thompson Center Nipple Wrench that works well. Once I removed the rod, I could put a socket on it and use a Breaker bar. Works every time!

I know things like this can be very frustrating. I like to look upon them as learning experiences. Good Luck!

Walt