Round Ball accuracy??

[Stumpkiller]

Here's another thought for the Mr. Wizard types. That round ball sheds velocity rapidly and at some point along it's trip is transecting the sound barrier. There is turbulance associated with that, as the shockwave barrier physically passes from in front of the ball to behind it.

Dosing her with a little more powder may open the group a bit at 25 and 50, but keep things tighter at 100 if this is the case.

 

[roundball]

Roundball, I've never tried the next size up wad?? This is better sealing and accuracy then the standard bore size wad? I'll have to try.

No science to back it up...just an assumption based upon the logic that an even tighter fitting wad would make an even tighter seal.

I only use them for full power hunting loads as they're not needed for half power target loads, and they're a little pricey...but you can pick up the patches and reuse them the wads seal so well

 

[Tahquamenon]

Here's another thought for the Mr. Wizard types. That round ball sheds velocity rapidly and at some point along it's trip is transecting the sound barrier. There is turbulence associated with that, as the shockwave barrier physically passes from in front of the ball to behind it.

Dosing her with a little more powder may open the group a bit at 25 and 50, but keep things tighter at 100 if this is the case.

:hmm:
I'd certainly agree with that theory. As once sighted in at 100 yards with a higher charge hunting load, the shorter range accuracy is not as good or consistent with PRB or even the flat nosed conical.

Very true that a ball looses velocity very quickly as apposed to "nosed" projectiles with flat or flatter bases. . The round projectile bears more surface area to aerodynamic resistance which also slows it down faster. Also, the roundball actually creates a turbulent effect that places an increased drag/vacuum on the bullet, thus slowing it down faster.

 

[LeeRoy87]

Remembering the results others folks and I got with patched round balls in 1:48,.54 T/C Renegades 30 years ago, Regulis' experience is pretty typical. The problem is the T/C twist: perfect for conicals, but way too fast for PRB at any meaningful velocity.

With this rifle, my best PRB accuracy at all ranges was with 60 grs. GoEx FFg. Bench rested, this yielded three-round cloverleafs at 50 yards, but by 100 yards these groups had opened to eight inches or more. Patch condition -- marked but not blown -- indicated a good fit. Don't remember the lube, but it was probably some T/C product.

The same rifle with home-cast Maxis and a 100-gr. FFg charge would shoot maybe five-inch 100-yard three-round groups without cleaning between rounds, half that size if I swabbed out the bore after each shot, again with GoEx. The Renegade really came into its own when the 425 gr. Hornady Great Plains bullets became available: with those and the same 100 gr. GoEx charge, swabbing between rounds, it would shoot 100-yard cloverleafs.

For reliable round-ball accuracy with heavy charges, I'd recommend a .54 Green Mountain drop-in barrel, 1:70 twist. With that barrel on the Renegade stock, .535 ball, .015 patch, Dixie Old Zip Patch Grease, again swabbing between rounds, my best accuracy is also the max load, 120 grs. GoEx: benchrested, three rounds reliably in two inches at 100 yards, sometimes an inch and a half, once -- on an absolutely windless day -- a cloverleaf. This load chronographs at about 1900 fps, which yields about 1815 foot pounds or approximately 1100 fps and 610 foot pounds at 100 yards.

Don't think Regulis mentioned what propellent he's using, but that could be another part of the problem. Traditional BP firearms perform horribly with so-called "replica" powders. In fact I don't know what I will do when I finally run out of real black powder. It's gotten impossible to buy locally due to Patriot Act hysteria and local anti-Second Amendment zealotry, and the artificial stuff won't even ignite properly, much less yield reliable accuracy (unless you shoot an in-line gun using shotgun primers, which to me is an unnatural act).

Oh, well; probably doesn't matter anyway: the Democrats took the whole state government this year, and one of their legislative intentions is to outlaw all lead projectiles, which will end muzzle-loading shooting in Washington state forever.

 

[Bob J]

Old Gray Wolf-
I like Goex too. Have experimented with Pyrodex and T-7 (T-7 was better than pyro, but Goex was best). Black Mag 3 works great in sidelocks and is accurate but is pricey. Just received Goex pinacle powder and, it being a very windy day on 1st outing, can't give a full report on accuracy except to say it appears that it will have Goex accuracy. Ignition was excellent. $18.50/lb.

 

[Rebel]

The problem is the T/C twist: perfect for conicals, but way too fast for PRB at any meaningful velocity.

Nothing wrong with their rate of twist, just the depth of the rifling. If they used good cut rifling instead of that button rifling with the shallow grooves, the 1-48 twist would work fine. Couple of brothers a while back used that twist in the barrels of their guns. Called them a Hawken. Out of St. Louis they were. ::

 

[LeeRoy87]

Shoulda remembered the Hawken twist; must be gettin' old.

 

[Rebel]

must be gettin' old. Yea, ain't we all? ::

 

[LeeRoy87]

I have a Parker-Hale 1861 Enfield Musketoon, progressive-depth rifling exactly as in original, 1:48, .004" at the muzzle, .013" at the breech. I've had this superbly-made Parker-Hale for years -- it's truly the best replica muzzle-loader of any kind I've ever owned. But I've never fired it with anything but Minie ball, with which it is extremely accurate. (It's also light and carries easily, which makes it a great woods rifle for an arthritic old geezer with a bad back.) Now thanks to this discussion I want to try it with a patched round ball, and when I do I'll make a full report. Meanwhile, if anybody else has already done this, I'd love to hear their results.

 

[roundball]

I have a Parker-Hale 1861 Enfield Musketoon, progressive-depth rifling exactly as in original, 1:48, .004" at the muzzle, .013" at the breech. I've had this superbly-made Parker-Hale for years -- it's truly the best replica muzzle-loader of any kind I've ever owned. But I've never fired it with anything but Minie ball, with which it is extremely accurate. (It's also light and carries easily, which makes it a great woods rifle for an arthritic old geezer with a bad back.) Now thanks to this discussion I want to try it with a patched round ball, and when I do I'll make a full report. Meanwhile, if anybody else has already done this, I'd love to hear their results.

FWIW...I ran side x side tests last summer using TC 1:48" standard barrels and TC 1:66" RB barrels, using the same full power hunting loads in the 1:48's that I used in my 1:66" barrels;

One Saturday was .45cal, the next was .50cal, the next was .54cal...with each cal/Bbl x cal/Bbl comparisons being done at exactly the same time, under the same range, weather, components, and shooter conditions, etc, etc on each respective Saturday.

All were strong loads of 90grns Goex FFFg (3F), Oxyoke prelubed wonderwads, and TC prelubed .018" pillow ticking patches...the only differences were the size of the Hornady balls: .440's, .490's, .530's

The differences in the targets from 1:48" to 1:66" was so insignificant, if someone had shuffled the targets together, I would have had to pause and study them to try and identify which target was from which barrel.

1:48" twists shoot patched round balls fine.

 

[cayugad]

All my 1:48 twist barrels shoot roundball excellent. Although I have a 1-66 twist .50 caliber and a 1:70 twist .58 caliber that might have a slight edge in the accuracy department with round ball. Although as far as hunting accuracy, you would not have to get too worried with any of the rifles.

 

[Nimrod]

My Hawken 50 with a 48 barrel couldnt hit a barn even if you were standing in side of it. 4" at 30 yards 65 to 75gr of Goex :curse: conicals wern't much better but did real good with 240 shock waves sabots. If I knew this I wouldnt have bought the Omega. Stock was spliting so sent it back to T/C for a new stock and maby a new barrel I hope we will see in 4 to 6 weeks :sleep:.

Nimrod

 

[muzlodr]

My Hawken 50 with a 48 barrel couldnt hit a barn even if you were standing in side of it. 4" at 30 yards 65 to 75gr of Goex :curse: conicals wern't much better but did real good with 240 shock waves sabots. If I knew this I wouldnt have bought the Omega. Stock was spliting so sent it back to T/C for a new stock and maby a new barrel I hope we will see in 4 to 6 weeks :sleep:.

Nimrod

Nimrod
I just finished rebuilding an old CVA Hawkin. It was horribly mistreated by a young man who used its barrel to launch bottle rockets. His mom threw it away, thought it was dangerous. I happened to be in the right place at the right time. Got it for nothing. Made a new underrib, attched thimbles and new sights, scrubbed and scrubbed the bore some more. All that is left is the browning. Anyway, my point is that that inexpensive, Spanish, abused gun shoots great! I regularly shoot 50yd 1 1/2 - 2" groups with 60gr GEOX .490 with .15 pillow ticking patch lubed with Moose Milk. This is my starting load. I haven't played with it yet. I don't know whether it has a 48" or 60" twist (they came with both, according to different adds I read). The target doesn't care either. I have a custom John & Caleb Vincent 1847 Ohio rifle made for me in '91 by Dave Foster of Woodland Park, CO. It is absolutely beautiful an all aspects. It shoots great, but I would expect that from a well made weapon. I get my greatest joy getting the most I can from what others might call manure. Twist Schmist. Work with your gun. You'll find the right combination eventually.
Not preachin' at ya, but I've been shooting traditional black since '64 and haven't found one in which I couldn't find something to like. :m2c: :results:

 

[leslie]

I would look at the sights,I have had similar problems and went to blade front sights,upping the powder charge when shooting over 50 yds helped too.

 

[bshultz]

I get better accuracy with my Hawkens with a 1 in 66 twist than i do with my T\C with a 1 in 48, but the t\c is a flint and the hawkens is a precussion :results: :thumbsup: :redthumb:

 

[cayugad]

Today I wanted to try my luck shooting my Lyman Trade Rifle Flintlock in snow flurries. I figured this is a good way to learn about moisture and pan flash... etc. Also I had installed a set of Buckhorn Sights that came with the rifle which are adjustable so I wanted to tune the rifle in with them.

This rifle has a 1:48 twist. I upped the power charge to 100 grains of Goex 2f and a moosemilk .018 patched home casted roundball.

The first hit was low, so I adjusted the sight. After that I started getting a pretty good group. Hits #2 - #7 were starting to look good. Granted I was shooting at the small black square I drew on the index card at only 30 yards. The more I shot the more I seemed to see the holes as well as the black square.

I can't wait for the snow to melt so I can get back to some further distances and see just what this rifle will do. The more I shoot it the more impressed with it I am. The ignition time in the flurries was excellent. I had one slow hang fire later in the day when I was shooting powerbelts out of the rifle but that was the last shot of the day....

 

[LeeRoy87]

Accuracy that bad, you might have a bent barrel. Doesn't happen often, but it does happen. If you've already sent the gun back to T/C, telephone them, ask for the service department and describe the problem in detail. In every case I know about of that kind of severe inaccuracy with a T/C gun, T/C not only replaced the barrel, but made sure to replace it with one that is exceptionally accurate. (Never had a bad T/C barrel myself, but I have dealt lots with their customer service people over the years, and they're wonderful! Seems they always go the extra mile.) (Too bad the same can't be said for some of our modern firearm makers.)

 

[brfire]

I have a left handed sporterized cabelas hawken .54with a stainless 1 in 48 twist barrel and its horrible at anything more than 75 yards.Its dead on at 50 yards. It shoot a round ball best. I have tried just about every damn bullet out there and the little lead pumpkin works best. Here in massachusetts its hard to get a long shot( over 100 Yards). I use this gun when I am in my stand in the hemlocks, where your only gonna get about a 30 yard shot. Other than that I am gonna use my new omega.

 

[JeffinNZ]

100m (110 yards), .40cal Isaac Haines flintlock from bench. 1.7 inches. VERY calm day in winter. Patches on target from previous events.

 

[LeeRoy87]

That's just about how my 1975-vintage T/C Renegade shoots with its .54 caliber, 32" 1:70 Green Mountain barrel: .535 Speer ball (or a .535 ball from a Lee mold), .015 Irish Linen patch, Dixie's Old Zip Patch Grease, 120 grs. GoEx, CCI #11 cap.

(The original barrel is long gone, traded for I don't remember what, though last year I had Ed Rayl ream me out a 20-gauge from a bad-bore 28" T/C barrel I got in another swap, so now I've got a T/C shotgun/musket too.)